zlacker

AAA Gaming on Asahi Linux

submitted by 6a74+(OP) on 2024-10-10 14:16:28 | 944 points 354 comments
[view article] [source] [go to bottom]

NOTE: showing posts with links only show all posts
2. anothe+5j[view] [source] 2024-10-10 16:03:14
>>6a74+(OP)
Incredible work. May I also interest you in retrowin32 https://github.com/evmar/retrowin32/blob/main/README.md

Which is an attempt to collapse the stack so that fewer translation and virtualisation stages are needed.

◧◩
4. captn3+gm[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-10-10 16:23:10
>>bee_ri+tj
Rosetta 2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosetta_(software)#Rosetta_2
◧◩
6. vyskoc+wn[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-10-10 16:29:40
>>bee_ri+tj
I believe libkrun is the tech behind.

https://fosstodon.org/@slp/113283657607783321

Sergio Lópéz has more info in his blog

https://sinrega.org/2024-03-06-enabling-containers-gpu-macos...

https://sinrega.org/2023-10-06-using-microvms-for-gaming-on-...

◧◩
10. sumuyu+ou[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-10-10 17:09:53
>>bee_ri+tj
They are using it:

Other than the page size issue, FEX and Rosetta are comparable technologies (both are emulators, despite what Apple marketing might have you believe). Both FEX and Rosetta use the unique Apple Silicon CPU feature that is most important for x86/x86_64 emulation performance: TSO mode. Thanks to this feature, FEX can offer fast and accurate x86/x86_64 emulation on Apple Silicon systems.

From: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/fedora-asahi-remix/x86-...

◧◩◪
16. brookm+sO[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-10-10 19:01:36
>>ojdon+2L
Proton, not Photon. ;-) Here is a list with games and their support status: https://www.protondb.com/
22. hentre+WV[view] [source] 2024-10-10 19:38:11
>>6a74+(OP)
I noticed the URL was updated for this post. Previously it linked to asahilinux.org which showed an anti-HN manifesto from the HN referral. Curious as I haven’t seen this before. Seems it has been covered by previous commenters: >>36227103
◧◩◪
23. jshear+jW[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-10-10 19:40:18
>>dccham+QT
Bringing Proton to Mac would involve either Apple making amends with Khronos and supporting Vulkan, or Valve making the substantial effort to port Proton to Metal natively, or doing DirectX-to-Vulkan-to-Metal translation with MoltenVK. None of those sound very likely or optimal to me.

Besides, the main reason Valve is investing so heavily in Linux and Proton is so their destiny isn't tied to someone else's platform. MacOS is just another someone else's platform like Windows is, with the same threat of getting rug-pulled by a first-party app store that spooked Gabe Newell[1] into investing in Linux in the first place.

[1] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-18996377

◧◩◪◨⬒
33. manana+701[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-10-10 20:02:22
>>ginko+0Y
See[1] the Referrer-Policy header, <meta name="referrer">, <a referrerpolicy> and <a rel="noreferrer">.

But generally, webmasters have found it useful to know who caused their server to fall over^W^W^W^W^W^W is linking to their pages. This was even used as a predecessor to pingbacks once upon a time, but turned out to be too spammable (yes, even more so than pingbacks).

After the HN operators started adding rel=noreferrer to links to the Asahi Linux website, Marcan responded[2] by excluding anyone who has the HN submit form in their browser history, which feels like a legitimate attack on the browser’s security model—I don’t know how it’d be possible to do that. (Cross-origin isolation is supposed to prevent cross-site tracking of this exact kind, and concerns about such privacy violations are why SRI has not been turned into a caching mechanism along the lines of Want-Content-Digest, and so on and so forth.) ETA: This is no longer in place, it seems.

[1] https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTTP/Headers/Re...

[2] https://social.treehouse.systems/@marcan/110503331622393719

◧◩◪◨⬒⬓
34. jshear+j01[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-10-10 20:03:28
>>Smar+cZ
The Referrer-Policy header lets a server tell the browser how much referrer information to pass on when following links, all the way down to nothing at all if desired. Chrome does respect that, and they also followed other browsers in changing the default to "strict-origin-when-cross-origin" a few years ago which truncates the referrer path when leaving to a different domain, so they only see the domain the visitor came from rather than the specific page like they used to. Can't really fault Google in this case.

https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTTP/Headers/Re...

◧◩
35. tapoxi+m01[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-10-10 20:03:39
>>dccham+KU
https://www.pcworld.com/article/2465907/arm-version-of-steam...
◧◩
40. fullst+I31[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-10-10 20:22:17
>>hentre+WV
It's almost as bad as jzw's website: https://cdn.jwz.org/images/2016/hn.png (nsfw)
◧◩◪
44. hentre+I51[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-10-10 20:32:01
>>fullst+I31
He does the same redirect whenever someone links to his DNA Lounge: https://dnalounge.com (NSFW)
◧◩
49. dang+091[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-10-10 20:52:50
>>hentre+WV
The URL wasn't updated. You're thinking of >>41799011 , which was a separate post.
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔
50. manana+y91[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-10-10 20:55:44
>>miki12+x61
Ah. Ahhh[1]. I see.

  <!doctype html>
  <style>a { color: white; background-color: white; } a:visited { color: black; }</style>
  <body><a href="https://example.com/abracadabra" onclick="return false">you are a bad person</a>
[1] https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/:visited#pr...
◧◩
72. wmf+Jh1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-10-10 21:57:56
>>lyngui+bg1
The M3 GPU added a bunch of features including ray tracing. The "dynamic caching" sounds like a big change to local memory which could require serious driver changes.

https://www.theverge.com/2023/10/30/23938676/apple-m3-chip-g...

◧◩◪
75. GeekyB+li1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-10-10 22:02:51
>>m463+Zd1
Nothing prevents you from running games under emulation on MacOS.

Apple and Wine provide the tools, and apps like Whisky make them easy to use.

> Essentially, this app combines multiple translation layers into a single translation tool. It uses Wine, a translation layer that allows Windows apps and games to run on POSIX-based operating systems, like macOS and Linux. It also uses Rosetta and the Game Porting Toolkit, which are two official Apple tools that allow x86 programs to run on Apple Silicon and serve as a framework for porting Windows games to macOS, respectively.

Normally, this sort of process would require users to manually port games to Mac. But by combining Wine, Rosetta, and the Game Porting Toolkit, this can all happen automatically.

https://www.xda-developers.com/hands-on-whisky-macos-gaming/

However, as aleays, running games under emulation has a performance cost.

◧◩◪
78. Thaxll+Hi1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-10-10 22:07:24
>>580286+pi1
box64 if you prefer.

https://box86.org/2022/03/box86-box64-vs-qemu-vs-fex-vs-rose...

◧◩
82. JeffeF+2l1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-10-10 22:29:14
>>andrew+CM
I've been having good luck on my M1 Max MBP with Whisky, which uses Apple's game porting toolkit: https://getwhisky.app/
◧◩◪◨
85. tallda+Ul1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-10-10 22:35:23
>>kergon+zj1
> AFAICT, the Linux side is making progress, but still more games can be run from macOS.

I don't believe that's true. According to ProtonDB, 80% of the top-1000 most-played games on Steam are confirmed working on Linux: https://www.protondb.com/dashboard

I haven't seen any source documenting nearly similar success rates with Mac but I also haven't seriously tried gaming on Apple Silicon.

◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔
104. Wowfun+Xp1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-10-10 23:13:22
>>fl0id+xp1
Oh, wow, I did not realize how many games worked with this:

https://docs.getwhisky.app/game-support/index.html

I had assumed the lack of Vulkan on macOS was a major issue. Apparently not!

◧◩
112. openge+Nr1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-10-10 23:31:53
>>whimsi+qo1
NixOS is fully supported https://github.com/tpwrules/nixos-apple-silicon/blob/main/do...
◧◩◪◨
117. ThatPl+wt1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-10-10 23:49:16
>>Thaxll+Hi1
Box64 only does 64-bit binary translations. So for example Steam cannot run on box64 alone because it's a hybrid with both 32-bit and 64-bit binaries: https://github.com/ptitSeb/box64/?tab=readme-ov-file#notes-a...

Wine has beta support for 32-bit Windows applications on 64-bit-only wine, but it's not default.

They also address it: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/fedora-asahi-remix/x86-...

◧◩◪◨⬒
121. wtalli+nw1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-10-11 00:20:43
>>kelnos+Rl1
There are definitely some features omitted from Apple's GPU, but fairly early in the reverse engineering process, Alyssa Rosenzweig provided several examples of hardware features present in Apple's GPU that are not exposed by Metal: https://rosenzweig.io/blog/asahi-gpu-part-4.html
128. jayd16+Hx1[view] [source] 2024-10-11 00:37:39
>>6a74+(OP)
This makes me think of the classic clip of George Carlin telling a joke about the difference between heaven and hell [1].

Is there a modern equivalent with FAANG, Microsoft, Sony, Valve, etc.?

[1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oR8xPC4NEro

◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔⧯
134. wsc981+bz1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-10-11 00:55:15
>>Wowfun+Xp1
Cause MoltenVK [1] is used, I think.

---

[1]: https://github.com/KhronosGroup/MoltenVK

◧◩◪◨⬒
137. aurare+pz1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-10-11 00:58:42
>>adgjls+yx1
No, it’s the other way around. Intel has generally caught up in idle power draw but is still severely behind in performance per watt.

https://www.notebookcheck.net/Intel-Lunar-Lake-CPU-analysis-...

https://youtu.be/ymoiWv9BF7Q

◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔⧯▣
141. GeekyB+4E1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-10-11 02:04:05
>>wsc981+bz1
Not really.

PC games use DirectX as their graphics API, so you need something that can translate from DirectX to the native graphics API your OS is running.

On MacOS you'd be translating from DirectX to Metal and Apple provides the emulation software (D3DMetal) as part of the Game Porting Toolkit.

On a Steam Deck, Proton uses Vulkan on Linux as the native graphics API, so in that case you are translating from DirectX to Vulkan.

> DXVK (which translates Direct3D 8, 9, 10 and 11 calls to Vulkan on the fly), vkd3d-proton (which translates Direct3D 12 to Vulkan)

https://emulation.gametechwiki.com/index.php/Proton

◧◩
143. vincen+UE1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-10-11 02:20:11
>>psanfo+h5
AFAIK the M3 is going to take a lot longer as the asahi team leverages apple silicon in their CI which means mac mini servers and the M3 generation never got their mac mini. Of all the generations to finally take the plunge into apple silicon, I had to choose the weird one... (typing this on an M3 mbair and not on linux sigh)

Ah yeah, here's the post: https://social.treehouse.systems/@marcan/112277289414246878

◧◩◪◨
157. slimsa+9M1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-10-11 03:49:40
>>ronsor+uD1
MoltenVK doesn't support geometry shaders for ~3 years now[0]

[0] https://github.com/KhronosGroup/MoltenVK/issues/1524

◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔⧯
193. fsflov+F92[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-10-11 08:09:03
>>thauma+N82
https://pluralistic.net/2024/08/17/hack-the-planet/
◧◩
217. tmtvl+Hm2[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-10-11 10:28:09
>>jayd16+Hx1
Shamus Young had a gaming equivalent (unfortunately I can't find the actual comic, the Internet Archive may have it, though): https://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=9866
◧◩◪
218. ascagn+Sm2[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-10-11 10:30:11
>>WD-42+OI1
https://developer.apple.com/games/game-porting-toolkit/
◧◩
224. aykevl+Wr2[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-10-11 11:29:06
>>lyngui+bg1
M3 and M4 haven't been supported yet because they weren't a priority (looks like they've been focusing on gaming support for the last year or so).

Alyssa said in her talk that they'll probably get it working in 6 months or so: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDsksRBLXPk&t=2932s

◧◩◪◨⬒
227. leghif+sv2[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-10-11 11:57:36
>>echelo+q42
Be cautious about calling their customer support if you have "bought" DRM stuff: you can be banned for any reason at any time.

I complained about a failed delivery (broken box, one item missing). They refunded me but then immediately put me on a watch-list, threatening to ban me if I ever complain again. I will never buy anymore on amazon.

See >>41555898

◧◩◪◨
259. WD-42+KT2[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-10-11 15:13:42
>>pmarre+Ly2
Which is crossover/wine with custom patches.

https://raw.githubusercontent.com/apple/homebrew-apple/refs/...

0 chance they upstream anything. So in a way they are already benefitting from valves work.

◧◩◪◨
285. epcoa+653[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-10-11 16:28:29
>>anonfo+743
Must it really be confirmed or proven? This isn't a court of law.

But when someone willingly posts (and keeps) this publicly https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=effHrj0qmwk

and then acts offended or claims doxxing (and starts using it to stir shit up for leverage) when people draw the obvious conclusion, that's behavior in bad faith and should be called out as such and dismissed.

◧◩
303. dang+tg3[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-10-11 17:53:14
>>jayd16+Hx1
We detached this subthread from >>41802586 . Not a criticism—it just went pretty far off topic.
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔⧯▣▦
305. johnfe+Xh3[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-10-11 18:02:30
>>pjmlp+823
What do you foresee not working in the future?

If future versions of Proton break compatibility with older Windows apps, you can use different old versions of Proton for individual games. Steam makes this very easy on Linux, but rarely is it necessary.

I don't foresee many Linux distros breaking compatibility with Wine, which is good, as some devs argue Win32 is the only stable ABI on Linux. [1]

I don't foresee legal issues either, as Wine has been around for 31 years, and its corporate sponsors have included Google in the past. I've seen no indication that the project is on shaky legal grounds.

Microsoft could always create a new API that Wine doesn't yet support, but good luck getting developers to use it -- they've tried many times, but not much has stuck, and most devs just stick with Win32. [2]

1. https://blog.hiler.eu/win32-the-only-stable-abi/

2. >>36060678

◧◩◪◨
316. mrpipp+vv3[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-10-11 19:13:18
>>achand+u23
We would still like the changes to be upstream but they may need more polish, and it spawned a conversation about the division of responsibilities between SPIRV-Cross and MoltenVK:

https://github.com/KhronosGroup/SPIRV-Cross/pull/2200 https://github.com/KhronosGroup/SPIRV-Cross/pull/2204

◧◩◪◨⬒
330. satvik+9K4[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-10-12 07:58:27
>>adastr+nO1
I use whisky which is WINE underneath to play games on macOS.

https://github.com/Whisky-App/Whisky

◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔
337. tomnip+Fv5[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-10-12 16:23:53
>>WD-42+Me3
A non-trivial number of contributions to Wine come from CodeWeavers (30%+ of all commits), which in turn is funded by its work on Crossover, Proton, and commercial agreements with other businesses. Wine would not be the project it is today without the contributions of CodeWeavers. Contributing cash to the companies contributing code is a perfectly adequete form of giving back.

CodeWeavers released an annoucement when Gaming Portal Toolkit was announced.

https://www.codeweavers.com/blog/mjohnson/2023/6/6/wine-come...

◧◩
339. throaw+tM5[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-10-12 18:32:34
>>Balvar+JL5
not ipads, those are locked down. Macs though, they have an open bootloader and so far M1 and M2 chips have pretty good linux support, fully reverse-engineered: https://asahilinux.org/fedora/#device-support
◧◩◪◨
343. dang+NQ5[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-10-12 19:07:03
>>sylwar+wD3
Could you please stop posting in the flamewar style to HN? We're trying for something else here.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

◧◩◪◨
344. big_yi+RS5[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-10-12 19:21:52
>>lordle+jQ5
I just tried it the other day with Counter-Strike 2. Worked with no bugs using Whisky: https://getwhisky.app/
◧◩
348. Tobu+lS7[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-10-13 16:32:26
>>macrol+6c2
There's a proof of concept here: https://sinrega.org/2024-03-06-enabling-containers-gpu-macos...
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓
351. 580286+lLb[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-10-15 02:17:27
>>pmarre+u65
https://github.com/Whisky-App/Whisky
[go to top]