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Shanghai's Automotive Metamorphosis

submitted by surpri+(OP) on 2024-08-10 03:16:14 | 82 points 80 comments
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2. bobthe+Hw1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-08-10 23:15:49
>>underl+Bv1
Where are you seeing the US is a laggard in hour by hour productivity? The US is the best large country at this, coming in at #6 or #13 depending on the list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_labour_pr...
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4. gottor+jB1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-08-11 00:35:41
>>underl+Bv1
> we let our legacy ICE vehicle manufacturers dictate the terms of the shift to electric

Is that true? There was a policy push here to sell EVs, though there of course is continuing debate about what the magnitude of that push should be. The market so far in the US has spoken against greater adoption of EVs, for various reasons.

OP's article doesn't mention or discuss two very salient factors: one, that EV use in Shanghai is massively subsidized, both at the point of sale (EVs are free to register, whereas ICE vehicle registration starts at $15k) as well as to the producers; and two, whether such a subsidy is in fact for the long-term benefit of the public.

> other countries have a more stable and hour-for-hour productive workforce because their workers can get preventative care and treatment for illnesses quickly and without a fuss

No one would argue that healthcare in the US couldn't be improved, but I disagree that the payment model is the biggest issue. The way I see it, the biggest issue by far is that people are just very, very unhealthy! A full three quarters of adults are either overweight or obese. No country can have a cost-effective healthcare system with this kind of population.

And the distribution of healthcare spending is extremely lopsided, with the top 5% of spenders accounting for over half of all healthcare expenditure, and the bottom half of spenders comprising a mere 3% of spending[0]. (A few countries with socialized healthcare are starting to toy with the idea of just letting those high spenders die, with assisted suicide.) I don't know that a better system can be achieved without first promulgating a culture that values being healthy.

[0]: https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/health-...

16. blondi+xJ1[view] [source] 2024-08-11 02:57:55
>>surpri+(OP)
I think the author forgot to see this.

https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2023-china-ev-graveyards/

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25. alephn+2M1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-08-11 03:52:24
>>jimz+QK1
> There is no federalism in China

Yes there de facto is, especially due to the post-Mao reforms.

If you want to dig into how Chinese federalism works, I'd recommend these sources [0][1]

[0] - https://cjil.uchicago.edu/print-archive/cooperative-federali...

[1] - https://mitpress.mit.edu/9780262534246/how-reform-worked-in-...

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30. maxglu+3O1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-08-11 04:29:41
>>teract+aM1
Not to mention a lot of these fields are worn fleet cars

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uD8qqEx4G18

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38. alephn+UP1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-08-11 05:07:31
>>Zoomer+aO1
Most people don't, but the perception of distances are different in the US versus China.

The average round trip commute in the US is 42 miles [0] versus 11 miles in China [1]. This means the average American needs to charge almost 4x more often. Alternatively, imagine the range anxiety a Chinese driver might have with an EV with a range of 80 km/50 mi.

When you purchase a vehicle, you also take into account edge cases like interregional or intercity travel like roadtrips, family, or business.

Charging infra can get spotty very fast outside of dense regions. With the sheer density that most of China has, you don't have to worry about dead zones as much. Furthermore, that density also means you have alternative options for inter-city transit (eg. Sleeper Buses, Trains) that don't really exist at the frequency needed in the US.

The differences in expected distances also plays a major role in EV design - a number of Chinese EVs at the lower price range (eg. BYD Seagull, Wuling EV) have much smaller trunk sizes compared to Western oriented hatchback EVs like the Nissan Leaf, because there isn't the need or the expectation to do almost all your shopping with your car when high density urban environments allow you to have various options downstairs or rapid delivery (like 1 hour delivery).

Consumer Habits for Chinese are different from Americans, and the model that worked for China doesn't necessarily work for the US. That said, the Chinese style model would work well in similarly dense Western+Central Europe and Japan.

[0] - https://www.axios.com/2024/03/24/average-commute-distance-us...

[1] - http://service.shanghai.gov.cn/sheninfo/specialdetail.aspx?I...

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48. defros+p82[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-08-11 10:38:29
>>roenxi+N72
Quite the attitude you're sporting there sparky.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXoHCDK9kfM

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61. bobthe+ZS2[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-08-11 18:08:29
>>presen+ZK1
The average American voter likes parking lot and starts foaming at the mouth when talking about reducing minimums.

The other dirty secret is that government debt is actually very high in China and it’s a bit of a problem. Local and provincial governments in China have very little taxing power and so have been financing via opaque off-balance-sheet shell companies, and the exact number is not known but estimated at $8T. And now local government services are cutting back or even collapsing since the Chinese property market that was the collateral for a lot of this debt is in dire straits. https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Markets/China-debt-crunch/C...

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62. bobthe+oT2[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-08-11 18:11:09
>>alephn+WI1
The regional and local support is also a contribution to the giant elephant that is Chinese government local debt, with an estimated $8T of off-the-books debt by the IMF. https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Markets/China-debt-crunch/C...

Given that most of these governments are now in a pinch with this debt, it remains to be seen if this was a good idea.

64. moandc+K43[view] [source] 2024-08-11 19:52:21
>>surpri+(OP)
Amongst other things, I believe one of the motor-vehicle electrification catalysts in China is the fact that China's electric grid uses 220V AC as its standard for normal receptacles/outlets.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mains_electricity_by_country

Even though the prevalence and availability of EV Charging stations is a general issue across countries, having 220V AC makes the current state more bearable especially for residential charging use cases. For many in the US, adding a new 220V circuit, or having the option to add one, ends up being a cost-driven obstacle for adoption.

Electrification in China has happened across all modalities of motor-vehicles, where all the previously hyper-prevalent gas-powered motor scooters of yesterday are also EVs.

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