zlacker

The floppy disk refused to die in Japan

submitted by eloran+(OP) on 2024-01-28 14:16:13 | 28 points 17 comments
[view article] [source] [links] [go to bottom]
replies(5): >>Solven+mr >>rasz+hN >>johnea+GT >>thrwwy+r31 >>tamimi+lF1
1. Solven+mr[view] [source] 2024-01-28 17:13:03
>>eloran+(OP)
As does the fax machine. Japan is stuck in time for deeply entrenched cultural reasons not soon too change.
replies(3): >>reaper+7t >>thenan+Bt >>GuB-42+gJ
◧◩
2. reaper+7t[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-28 17:25:52
>>Solven+mr
"If it ain't broke, don't fix it."
replies(1): >>marcos+VD
◧◩
3. thenan+Bt[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-28 17:29:52
>>Solven+mr
It’s what makes it such a charming place to visit.

China has now far surpassed it as cyberpunk society of the future, but Japan is basically stuck at what we thought the year 2020 was going to be like in 1980

◧◩◪
4. marcos+VD[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-28 18:36:39
>>reaper+7t
Hum... Floppy disks and "ain't broke" on the same phrase is an unusual combination.

But then, most of the times people use that phrase something is obviously broken.

◧◩
5. GuB-42+gJ[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-28 19:07:06
>>Solven+mr
That's because fax machines in Japan were much more widespread than in the west. It is easier to let go of fax machines if you don't really use fax in the first place.

One reason I heard is that in Tokyo at least, the usual way to communicate a location is to draw a map, often with directions from the nearest subway station. Postal addresses are hard to work with as most streets are unnamed, and usually, only local postmen and policemen can comfortably navigate with them. These maps were often sent by fax. Maybe kanji has to do with it too.

Also, it is common for people who have good access to at a time modern technology to take more time to get to the next advance, may even skip it entirely. For example Japan was along the last in the technologically advanced world to get to smartphones, because they already had really advanced featurephones while we were stuck with Nokia 3310s. So while for us, the first smartphones brought us a lot, for them, it was in many ways a downgrade.

So, for us, email was a replacement for slow and expensive mail, for them, it was a replacement for already pretty fast and effective fax machines. There is less of an incentive to change.

replies(1): >>Solven+uR
6. rasz+hN[view] [source] 2024-01-28 19:36:53
>>eloran+(OP)
So everybody knows about 3.5 inch HD 1.44MB floppies, first introduced in 1985 by NEC inside PC-8801 mkII MR. IBM followed two years later switching PS/2 to 2HD floppies, Apple in 1988. 80 tracks ~50KB/s speed.

Much less known is ED 2.88MB. Only ever shipped in some 1990 IBM PS/2 and NEXT computers. 80 tracks ~100KB/s speed.

But pretty much nobody outside of Japan has ever hear about 'Triple' or '2TD' format developed and shipped by NEC in 1988 inside PC-88 VA3. 13MB unformatted, _9MB_ formatted capacity!! Triple because it tripled track density from 80 to 240 while reusing ED barium ferrite magnetic media, same ~100KB/s speed.

Could you imagine a world where we got 9MB ~100KB/s speed floppy drives in ~1990 in all computers?

replies(1): >>crq-ym+LS
◧◩◪
7. Solven+uR[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-28 20:04:23
>>GuB-42+gJ
"Postal addresses are hard to work with as most streets are unnamed, and usually, only local postmen and policemen can comfortably navigate with them."

Another example of a silly and easily fixable problem that will likely also go unresolved for years for the same cultural reasons.

◧◩
8. crq-ym+LS[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-28 20:14:23
>>rasz+hN
Ah, that would have made DOS game piracy so much easier.
9. johnea+GT[view] [source] 2024-01-28 20:20:57
>>eloran+(OP)
I don't really see the problem with contiuing to use any particular tech.

If it's not borken, don't fix it...

replies(1): >>bicx+H11
◧◩
10. bicx+H11[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-28 21:20:10
>>johnea+GT
Using a rock to drive in a nail technically works. However, if you want to build a house in a reasonable amount of time, using a rock to drive your nails _is_ a broken approach if it can’t keep pace.
11. thrwwy+r31[view] [source] 2024-01-28 21:35:18
>>eloran+(OP)
A couple years ago Panasonic and Sony partnered with the Japanese government to come up with an (alternative) standard that's similar to m-disc in its properties.

The standard that they came up with is called "Archival Disc" (AD) [1] and they fulfill the requirements of 100 years (lab tested and verified) data retention. The ODA units, however, cost over 8500$ last time I checked.

As far as I know you can order them from the Panasonic Japan website and not anywhere outside Japan, but this standard has huge potential in my opinion (when compared to the absurdly overpromised mdisc, for example).

Data retention rates matter, always have an optical and a spinning HDD backup. SSDs are not guaranteed to keep data longer than 30-90 days without electricity.

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archival_Disc

replies(1): >>Symbio+f71
◧◩
12. Symbio+f71[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-28 22:04:39
>>thrwwy+r31
> SSDs are not guaranteed to keep data longer than 30-90 days without electricity.

SSD retention claims vary depending on the drive; and it's a trade-off between speed, durability, total writes, etc.

At reasonable room temperatures, powered-off SSDs will keep data for years.

replies(1): >>thrwwy+f81
◧◩◪
13. thrwwy+f81[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-28 22:12:49
>>Symbio+f71
Well, most vendors argue with losses of around 1-2% of data per year if you read their specifications.

Losing a single bit is unacceptable for archival purposes, that's why I mentioned the importance of optical and magnetic backups as a redundancy.

replies(1): >>echoan+Ih1
◧◩◪◨
14. echoan+Ih1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-28 23:24:03
>>thrwwy+f81
Can you not store the data in a proper format with error correction? Then you can reconstruct the original data completely as long as a certain percentage of data is still undamaged.
replies(1): >>thrwwy+8d2
15. tamimi+lF1[view] [source] 2024-01-29 03:26:49
>>eloran+(OP)
If Microsoft hadn’t killed Internet Explorer, they would still be using it today.
◧◩◪◨⬒
16. thrwwy+8d2[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-29 09:41:17
>>echoan+Ih1
If an HDD lost its magnetic information, what do you want to create the data from?

Sure you can probably correct file headers, but that's it. Anything that's relying on file integrity probably will go nowhere without a redundant backup to correct the data from.

I'm not talking about "good enough" == "some pixels are wrong in a jpeg file". I am talking about legally relevant documents where authenticity matters and a single bit flip might cause the court to not accept the documents as evidence.

replies(1): >>Symbio+a13
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓
17. Symbio+a13[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-29 15:45:32
>>thrwwy+8d2
The post is referring to erasure coding or similar, which you can add to your files with a tool like PAR2.

You need to spread the files (including the redundancy codes) over enough disks that you expect to be able to access sufficient blocks in the future.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erasure_code

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parchive

[go to top]