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Move to Texas or else: Apple sends some California employees clear message

submitted by belter+(OP) on 2024-01-16 21:42:21 | 32 points 25 comments
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replies(4): >>jakeda+9c >>082349+7o >>hulitu+H91 >>screye+bu1
1. jakeda+9c[view] [source] 2024-01-16 22:54:14
>>belter+(OP)
"...employees who move to Austin by the end of June will receive $7,000 stipends for relocating."

I would not relocate to Austin or anywhere else in Texas for $70,000 much less $7000. Even a bastion of sanity in Texas is still in Texas. What if my daughter needed healthcare "south of the border", go to court?

I'd take my chances with the severance pay and live somewhere sane where they can keep the lights on.

replies(3): >>mesozo+cs >>pizzaf+eF >>Boatfa+2s1
2. 082349+7o[view] [source] 2024-01-17 00:01:55
>>belter+(OP)
In ancient times, IBM stood for "I've Been Moved". Luckily the late 20th century Silicon Valley model was to keep the same house and commute to a new job instead.
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3. mesozo+cs[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-17 00:24:10
>>jakeda+9c
No state income tax likely does make this closer to $70k annual for most of those employees. If they get to keep their California salary it's a great deal.
replies(2): >>native+uw >>eep_so+9x
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4. native+uw[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-17 00:52:31
>>mesozo+cs
They were offered a $7k one-time provision to offset relocation costs, the $70k figure was just a hyperbolic quip by the commenter you replied to. The average cost of housing is certainly lower, but despite the lack of an income tax, the average state and local tax burden for median incomes in Texas is significantly higher (12.73%) than in California (8.97%) [1].

The only people for whom Texas is a better deal for taxation are in the highest income brackets, higher even than tech workers at Apple. This is the case even though access to healthcare, higher education, and public services tends to be worse. This is why eliminating income taxes in favor of consumption and property taxes is widely considered to be regressive and disproportionately targeted at lower and middle class households. The higher median tax rate then seems to simply be a redistribution mechanism to funnel additional wealth to the wealthy on the backs of working Texans.

[1] https://wallethub.com/edu/best-worst-states-to-be-a-taxpayer...

replies(1): >>TexanF+ZK
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5. eep_so+9x[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-17 00:56:56
>>mesozo+cs
> they get to keep their California salary

I don’t know about Apple in particular but this is not generally how this works.

Also, I’m not sure $70k to have to fly my daughter out of state for health care is a good trade, ymmv.

replies(1): >>Boatfa+cs1
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6. pizzaf+eF[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-17 01:51:02
>>jakeda+9c
If there's wind Parts of California will turn off power
replies(2): >>mplewi+Jn1 >>bravet+GO1
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7. TexanF+ZK[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-17 02:30:06
>>native+uw
> the average state and local tax burden for median incomes in Texas is significantly higher (12.73%) than in California (8.97%)

> The only people for whom Texas is a better deal for taxation are in the highest income brackets, higher even than tech workers at Apple.

I pay 4-5% of my individual income in local property taxes of all types, and we pay less than 4% of our household income. And that's after recent large increases in our property value. We live in the city limits of Austin, one of the more taxed places in TX. We bought outside of downtown, but actually nearer most tech companies than downtown. Our neighborhood is perfectly safe, paying less didn't affect that. If you're in TX paying 12% of your income in taxes you probably either have a low income and inherited more house than you could otherwise afford or you made a foolish decision on where to live(had to be in that trendy part of town).

Bonus: cheap gas, cheap electricity, cheap beef, cheap groceries at H-E-B

replies(1): >>wjsisk+951
8. human_+vZ[view] [source] 2024-01-17 04:34:26
Dang I'm pretty disappointed by this comment and the fact that you flagged the parent comment. I agree "Thanks Apple!" doesn't add anything to the comment, but the rest of the comment (while touching on a divisive issue) is an important consideration for female tech workers (and male tech workers with wives/daughters/etc). Losing the right to bodily autonomy is just as important to consider as potential tradeoffs regarding taxes. Yes, abortion restrictions are a contentious issue, but thats because they have material impacts on women's lives. I understand you dont want a flamewar but it seems wrong to dismiss comments raising legitimate concerns rather than inappropriate or flame-prone comments made in response.
replies(2): >>dang+121 >>dredmo+wca
9. dang+121[view] [source] 2024-01-17 05:03:22
>>human_+vZ
This is one of the most prominent ideological faultlines that exists. There can't be many HN readers who are unaware of where their interests lie on this question—most likely there are zero. So I don't buy the public interest argument here; I think this thread is just the usual ideological/political foofarah, and on that the HN standard is clear: it's not what this site is for. If people really wanted to factually inform one another in a helpful way, they would post entirely different comments from >>39020465 . As I already said, it's not a borderline call.

Here's another way of looking at it, in case helpful: we don't want anything predictable on HN. The rhetoric that people resort to when an issue like this comes up is fierce, repetitive, and predictable. That makes sense—if you're fighting for a cause you feel passionately about, repeating the same points as intensely as possible is what you do. But all of that is off topic on this site. There are plenty of other places to post that way.

Edit: I know how strong the temptation is to read something like this and think that the mods are taking the wrong position* on (in this case) abortion rights, and then get super mad about it. But I'm not saying anything about abortion rights (or California vs. Texas) in the slightest. I'm just trying to do the pedestrian moderation job I always do.

* https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...

replies(1): >>dredmo+Pca
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10. wjsisk+951[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-17 05:40:36
>>TexanF+ZK
I know Texas very well, I was married there, all my kids were born there, and it's definitely the place I felt most accepted (Texas was very different then), but I gotta say it's a bit trickier than this for folks nowadays, the government there really has gotten into everyone's business and even local cities can't pass their own laws without the state government overriding them and enforcing their ideas on everyone else. It's a shadow of the state I'd come to love. So I get why people would not be anxious to sign up for that deal ( even if they don't know that Austin is in some ways less liberal and accepting than Houston or Dallas which are much more cosmopolitan and diverse).

That said, California has literally nothing like HEB and if I could have elected HEB to be the government I would have taken that deal in a heartbeat, so you and I agree there.

11. hulitu+H91[view] [source] 2024-01-17 06:29:47
>>belter+(OP)
> Move to Texas or else: Apple sends some California employees clear message

Will they also change "Designed in California, made in China" with "Designed in Texas, made in India" ? /s

replies(1): >>o0-0o+rK1
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12. mplewi+Jn1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-17 08:21:55
>>pizzaf+eF
Yes, in comparison, Texas has a famously stable electrical grid.
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13. Boatfa+2s1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-17 08:54:03
>>jakeda+9c
Lol south of the border. What a nice way of saying,"kill my grandchild"
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14. Boatfa+cs1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-17 08:55:13
>>eep_so+9x
Again, Healthcare = kill my grandchild. Stay classy.
replies(1): >>eep_so+642
15. screye+bu1[view] [source] 2024-01-17 09:09:31
>>belter+(OP)
Genuine question, what's up with the ardent hatred for Texas (and noncoastal cities in general)

I might lack the nuance to pick up differences, but American suburbs are remarkably consistent across the country. All the new 'inner' tech cities (Austin, Atlanta, Phoenix, Boulder), used to be University towns.... so they were deep blue even before us tech yuppies moved in.

I've found Americans to be rather welcoming everywhere I have gone. If anything, Seattle has been my 'least welcoming' experience so far.

Is the abortion issue that big of a factor in moving decisions ? Other than a few headlines, I doesn't seem to be particularly difficult to take an out of state visit if the need arises.

I can understand the urban density or nature as good reasons....but I find that those most opposed to the move rarely give either as reasons. (I might be projecting based on a few similar anecdotes I've been on the listening end of)

replies(1): >>silent+zz1
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16. silent+zz1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-17 09:46:34
>>screye+bu1
> Is the abortion issue that big of a factor in moving decisions ? Other than a few headlines, I doesn't seem to be particularly difficult to take an out of state visit if the need arises.

All other things being equal, people normally like to live in an area where local government look after their people. Or at the very least, don't actively write legislation that is designed to harm you for no compelling reason.

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17. o0-0o+rK1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-17 11:16:57
>>hulitu+H91
Sounds like progress to me
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18. bravet+GO1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-17 11:56:10
>>pizzaf+eF
If it's remotely close to freezing for more than a day, Texas loses reason

Power is lost, people dumpster-dive, and the milk/bread sells out

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19. eep_so+642[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-17 13:40:47
>>Boatfa+cs1
This is a despicable attitude.
20. dredmo+wca[view] [source] 2024-01-19 18:00:05
>>human_+vZ
NB: much as I disagree with Dang's rationale here, HN mods almost never flag or remove comments, HN readers do. Mod actions typically show as "deleted" AFAIU (something I've had explained to me repeatedly by dang but cannot keep straight).

That said: HN's policy of strongly deprecating discussions of political hot potatoes does mean that HN has a de facto status quo bias, which is problematic in general and in this case specifically, as the issue raised in the flagged comment upstream is assuredly material for some Apple employees objecting to Apple's ultimatum.

replies(1): >>dang+Voa
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21. dredmo+Pca[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-19 18:01:09
>>dang+121
<>>39058763 >

Political oppression is unfortunately highly predictable. This doesn't make it unworthy of discussion.

replies(1): >>dang+Poa
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22. dang+Poa[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-19 18:59:11
>>dredmo+Pca
HN is a site for intellectual curiosity. Predictability cuts directly against that. What do you think we should do—not be a site for intellectual curiosity anymore?
replies(1): >>dredmo+WAb
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23. dang+Voa[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-19 18:59:59
>>dredmo+wca
[deleted] means the author of the post deleted it or asked us to delete it for them. The mods never do that without a request from the author (and usually not if the post has replies).

Mods almost never flag submissions but we do sometimes flag comments.

Both of these points are in the FAQ: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html.

replies(1): >>dredmo+wid
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24. dredmo+WAb[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-20 02:41:36
>>dang+Poa
The slope here isn't near that slippery.

There's been a tremendous shift in U.S. abortion, reproductive, and effectively general healthcare since the Dobbs decision in 2022, and Texas specifically has enacted some of the strictest and most vindictive state laws and policies, all of which would and should weigh heavily on the minds of anyone affected by Apple's decision here. Raising that point is absolutely on-topic in this discussion.

I'll allow that the "Thanks, Apple" wasn't strictly necessary, but even that seems within bounds given the circumstances and story.

If you'd like some guidelines here, I'd suggest that political considerations which impact on a story, particularly where those considerations have recently changed or are in flux (both of which apply here) should be permitted.

Totalitarian, repressive, and authoritarian governments and governance specifically operate on the very sort of generic, hot-button, emotionally-loaded issues and matters which HN typically eschews. Where those topics are not materially related to the story at hand I think that they can be reasonably admonished, particularly if the context and tone are inflammatory. In this case the consideration and its significance are material and relevant, even if Chron's own story omitted the consideration (a conspicuous omission itself).

HN's policy puts an extreme onus on those who call out repression, and is effectively a form of tone-policing. I've called this out in the past, and pointed out where you've acknowledged a comenter's stress in response, as here: <>>37372792 >

As contrasted: <>>37270026 >, which bears repeating.

Your own insensitivity on this particular matter is truly disappointing.

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25. dredmo+wid[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-20 18:25:39
>>dang+Voa
Thanks, again.
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