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Stop Writing Dead Programs

submitted by aidenn+(OP) on 2022-10-20 02:39:24 | 181 points 60 comments
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1. Aloha+o8[view] [source] 2022-10-20 04:15:01
>>aidenn+(OP)
Wasn't this just on here like two days ago?

Yes it was, mods merged the text link with the video link.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33251799

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5. nequo+ud[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-10-20 05:14:24
>>donqui+Ub
> Yeah, sure, it would be nice to have the Vitruvian Man in the code, but it's also nice to be able to re-open your text file in 5 years

I imagine this as an Emacs package that recognizes tree-like code patterns (like what he showed in the video) and replaces those patterns inline when you toggle it. Your code is still the same plaintext. But your editor can display chunks of it as graphs.

Emacs does this already in latex-mode and org-mode for math formulas.[1] It shouldn't be a stretch to do this for other types of code, too.

[1] See this example in markdown-mode: https://external-preview.redd.it/ETo2U5C7vh5o4482sMcnYbkZ6Lx...

6. kragen+Wf[view] [source] 2022-10-20 05:42:12
>>aidenn+(OP)
I'm glad to see this talk transcript is back on the front page where it belongs! The previous post, which unfortunately got castrated into a video link, is https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33251799; my comments are at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33256626.
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7. notRob+zk[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-10-20 06:33:10
>>kragen+Wf
Fixed link 1: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33251799
9. vishnu+un[view] [source] 2022-10-20 07:09:15
>>aidenn+(OP)
While you are here

Stop Drawing Dead Fish by Bret Victor

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfytHvgHybA

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10. compre+Fn[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-10-20 07:10:57
>>vishnu+un
Also https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14460013 https://www.emilydamstra.com/please-enough-dead-butterflies/
11. peterk+Yo[view] [source] 2022-10-20 07:26:31
>>aidenn+(OP)
Since the talk was already posted yesterday, here's another great related video that is well worth watching: Dan Ingalls demonstrating Smalltalk 76 on a restored Xerox Alto.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uknEhXyZgsg

This is where it all started and it's truly amazing what they achieved on such limited hardware.

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21. the-sm+DF[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-10-20 10:46:55
>>donqui+Ub
Are you talking about this? https://youtu.be/8Ab3ArE8W3s?t=2190

It's not inserting images into the code. It's a structured editor presenting an alternative view of the code. It's just code. That's all there is to this. Man, frustrating.

22. chrism+rG[view] [source] 2022-10-20 10:55:28
>>aidenn+(OP)
> I wish they had frozen a primitive version of JS and added a marker at the beginning of scripts to switch out which language is used, much in the way #lang does in Racket.

JavaScript has had basically this several times (though not after the extreme flexibility of Racket’s #lang).

• In the context of HTML, there was <script language="…">, with a variety of unstandardised values for the language attribute, e.g. javascript1.0, javascript1.4. I think there were also unofficial MIME types that worked too (something like <script type="text/javascript;…">), but it’s hard finding documentation for this ancient history and I haven’t tried for more than half a minute. In the end, it died for lack of utility and because in practice new versions didn’t break anything worth mentioning so it was all just the one thing under the hood.

• Strict mode <https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/JavaScript/Refe...>, via the "use strict" statement at the start of files and functions. Also "use asm" as another pragma that opted out of most of the language for performance reasons.

• And ECMAScript Modules are to some extent a new file format, and a module’s contents are automatically in strict mode.

Suffice it to say: they can remove stuff if there is any will too. But there is not.

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40. Jtsumm+Np1[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-10-20 14:54:28
>>codefl+YC
By committing the code to a git repo and having a code review like every other language out there.

I'm guessing you have never tried these things but image based Smalltalk implementations have supported VCS for decades now, literally. In Pharo this is with git using Iceberg:

https://github.com/pharo-vcs/iceberg

They even wrote a tutorial to make it easier: https://github.com/pharo-vcs/iceberg/wiki/Tutorial

It's not magic, it's not even a problem, because the problem you're imagining doesn't actually exist. So long as the user of the system has at least half a brain (and maybe less) they will be capable of distributing their code with git these days.

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46. Jtsumm+uM1[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-10-20 16:28:23
>>codefl+MJ1
> I hope you will agree that this is not how Smalltalk is usually advocated.

I will not agree, and I hope you will understand why after I give some evidence. Here's what Pharo advocates typically point people towards:

https://mooc.pharo.org/#week1 - I've linked to the week1 anchor so you can see that Iceberg makes it in pretty early. I hope you understand that despite your hopes for me I cannot agree. Sorry to crush your hopes, I hope you can forgive me.

49. dang+7R1[view] [source] 2022-10-20 16:48:15
>>aidenn+(OP)
Recent and related:

Stop Writing Dead Programs [video] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33251799 - Oct 2022 (215 comments)

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53. agentu+Mc2[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-10-20 18:28:13
>>agentu+F61
My dream project, if I ever win the startup lotto and come into some "mess around and find out," money, would do one better: let's not even require a graphical display or keyboard input.

My personal goal here is to be able to write my programs by synthesizing them from proofs that I write by hand. Whether that is on a special device like an eInk reader or on a whiteboard; my work carries around with me where I choose to take it. I would love a world where my physical attention isn't focused on a glowing box with graphics designed by some company in Palo Alto or Cupertino who is designing for mass audiences with profits motivating every decision (and change). Why even hard-wire ourselves to the physical legacy of terminals?

There are plenty of humans who aren't even afforded access to modern computers in manners that are convenient to them and respect their abilities and capacities! The entire design of modern computing is centred around able-bodied, able-minded "mass-market" people -- whatever that is.

It's frustrating that any other mode of computing is an after-thought, an inconvenience, and attached to these machines in order to meet people where they are. Often times the answer is simply, "Nope, sorry."

Particularly inspired by: DynamicLand, https://screenl.es etc

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