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[parent] [thread] 40 comments
1. themit+(OP)[view] [source] 2022-10-12 16:53:47
It's morally dubious to pick and choose what laws you follow. It doesn't matter if you think they are monopolies, that's not your judgment to make
replies(15): >>Melato+W1 >>Super_+x2 >>pigsca+V2 >>otabde+Y2 >>ryanwa+Z2 >>hypert+m3 >>pessim+24 >>LocalH+y4 >>jonath+I5 >>soulof+a9 >>lwhi+kd >>bee_ri+fg >>fancyf+Tj >>chalst+Wt >>dexter+hz
2. Melato+W1[view] [source] 2022-10-12 17:02:14
>>themit+(OP)
or we need new laws that update what a "monopoly" is
3. Super_+x2[view] [source] 2022-10-12 17:04:22
>>themit+(OP)
Outsourcing your moral decisions to the legal system seems a lot more dubious to me.

I don't think you can claim a coherent moral philosophy when the morality of an action depends on the legal jurisdiction you happen to be standing in.

4. pigsca+V2[view] [source] 2022-10-12 17:05:40
>>themit+(OP)
Practicing civil disobedience against laws you believe unethical is not morally dubious, it's legally dubious. If anything, I'd consider it a display of moral fortitude to prize one's ethics above the potential consequences.
replies(3): >>Blamma+d8 >>mhb+jb >>bee_ri+we
5. otabde+Y2[view] [source] 2022-10-12 17:05:49
>>themit+(OP)
Unless there are people who literally never broke any law (and there aren't), picking and choosing laws is exactly what every human does.
6. ryanwa+Z2[view] [source] 2022-10-12 17:05:50
>>themit+(OP)
It's pretty morally dubious to think you can outsource your own sense of ethics to whatever government you happen to live under. Some laws are immoral to break, others are not. It's 100% up to you to decide what your own moral and ethical framework is, including whether to outsource those decisions to a government, religion, culture, etc. That doesn't mean you get to decide on the consequences for breaking the rules that society, religion, etc, has imposed, but that's orthogonal to whether they fit your personal ethics.
7. hypert+m3[view] [source] 2022-10-12 17:06:56
>>themit+(OP)
Is it morally dubious to change citizenship to another country? That's literally choosing what laws you follow. What about religions? Their texts used to be laws, and we seem to believe in freedom to choose our beliefs.

I think every citizen has the responsibility to choose to not follow unjust laws.

8. pessim+24[view] [source] 2022-10-12 17:09:32
>>themit+(OP)
> that's not your judgment to make

It certainly is.

9. LocalH+y4[view] [source] 2022-10-12 17:11:23
>>themit+(OP)
It’s morally dubious to practice blind adherence to the law for the sake of it being the law
replies(1): >>promet+F8
10. jonath+I5[view] [source] 2022-10-12 17:17:21
>>themit+(OP)
You assume that laws are moral to begin with. Remember, slavery was legal in the United States, and the Nazis made laws to deprive Jewish people of their rights.

Conversely, not all immoral acts are illegal, e.g. cheating on a spouse.

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11. Blamma+d8[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-10-12 17:29:08
>>pigsca+V2
Exactly. And now it's time for Godwin, more or less: would you have followed the laws in Nazi Germany that made Jews less than human?
replies(1): >>bee_ri+Cc
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12. promet+F8[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-10-12 17:31:17
>>LocalH+y4
You can object to the law. Petition your lawmaker to change the law. Be vocal about hating the law. But until its not the law, you have to follow it.
replies(3): >>vcxy+T9 >>evanda+qg >>jallen+Gi
13. soulof+a9[view] [source] 2022-10-12 17:33:58
>>themit+(OP)
You need to fundamentally rethink your philosophy if you think law and morals are the same. Rosa Parks would like to have a word with you.
replies(1): >>kube-s+uc
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14. vcxy+T9[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-10-12 17:37:08
>>promet+F8
I understand that you believe that, but you didn't say why. Is this a foundational belief or is there a deeper reason?
replies(1): >>promet+4b
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15. promet+4b[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-10-12 17:42:18
>>vcxy+T9
It's a foundational belief of the social contract we've signed by agreeing to democracy
replies(4): >>stormb+Gb >>LocalH+ff >>dexter+6y >>samatm+IV
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16. mhb+jb[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-10-12 17:43:38
>>pigsca+V2
There's a difference between civil disobedience and just getting away with something because you can.
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17. stormb+Gb[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-10-12 17:45:47
>>promet+4b
Democracy exists at all because people did not follow a blind adherence to law.

At any rate, "the law" is a body of rules so large and complex that likely almost no one actually manages to get through a month without breaking it a couple times.

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18. kube-s+uc[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-10-12 17:48:58
>>soulof+a9
Immanuel Kant would like to have a word with you.
replies(2): >>soulof+9J >>Fervic+cM
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19. bee_ri+Cc[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-10-12 17:49:14
>>Blamma+d8
I mean I think copyright laws are dumb but this seems a like a bit of an over-dramatic comparison.
replies(2): >>nkjnlk+Kx >>alvare+tZ
20. lwhi+kd[view] [source] 2022-10-12 17:52:49
>>themit+(OP)
How on earth is not our right to engage our own brains and decide if we agree with any aspect of the world that hold sway on us????!!

I completely disagree. To think otherwise is to be entirely passive and compliant in a world that quite possibly could be (edit: is) corrupt on many levels.

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21. bee_ri+we[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-10-12 17:59:22
>>pigsca+V2
I actually think piracy is more like speeding than civil disobedience for most people. The intent of most people who pirate things isn't to get caught and change the laws. The intent is to just ignore a law that is inconvenient.

And it is sort of similar in the sense that, copyright law is over aggressive, honestly, many speed limits are set too low, violation is pretty wide-spread, and within reason it seems basically fine.

It breaks down a bit at the edges though, because extreme violations of speed limits can result in harm and death, while copyright is just lost profits.

replies(1): >>nrb+nS
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22. LocalH+ff[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-10-12 18:02:59
>>promet+4b
I agreed to no such thing. The social contract I've been forced into seems to have a lot to do with enriching power and moneyed interests, at the expense of the individual. I want no part of that.
replies(1): >>themit+Ut
23. bee_ri+fg[view] [source] 2022-10-12 18:07:48
>>themit+(OP)
I think you could make a strong argument for the "sign" on the morality of pirating being negative.

But the "magnitude" is so low, I can't imagine caring when other people do it.

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24. evanda+qg[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-10-12 18:08:25
>>promet+F8
I practise my objection to the law by downloading whatever I want. If somebody has a problem with that they are free to sue me :)
replies(1): >>dimitr+Uz
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25. jallen+Gi[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-10-12 18:18:59
>>promet+F8
Strictly following the law because it is the law is precisely amoral. You are taking moral judgement out of the question.
26. fancyf+Tj[view] [source] 2022-10-12 18:23:31
>>themit+(OP)
It's well-accepted in psychology/sociology that moral development extends beyond simply following the law, i.e. using the law as a stand-in for moral principles. E.g. in Kohlberg's stages of moral development[1], there is a post-conventional stage where an individual develops a moral code independent of laws, and views laws as a social contract that can be disobeyed if it violates his/her morals. Laws are a good guideline, but are not an absolute moral framework.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Kohlberg%27s_stages_o...

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27. themit+Ut[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-10-12 19:06:58
>>LocalH+ff
In a democracy you don't always get what you want
28. chalst+Wt[view] [source] 2022-10-12 19:07:19
>>themit+(OP)
Do you know all the laws that apply to you? If you don't, that's some selectivity right there.
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29. nkjnlk+Kx[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-10-12 19:25:57
>>bee_ri+Cc
Not really when the initial comment was that it is immoral to disobey _any_ law.
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30. dexter+6y[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-10-12 19:26:49
>>promet+4b
Please show me where I signed
31. dexter+hz[view] [source] 2022-10-12 19:32:29
>>themit+(OP)
It's not? I don't know where you're from, but if you're from one of the places that claims that its people are free then it is the people's judgement to make. If I download and watch a show from irc/usenet/torrent/etc I am harming nobody. It is no different than going to watch it at a friend's house. If the content providers want to secure their content they have to go back to showing it only in controlled locations, but that costs them too much and restricts their audience.
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32. dimitr+Uz[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-10-12 19:35:51
>>evanda+qg
Getting sued will be the least of your worries.

There's a litany of incidents where the FBI has raided homes just to snag one pirater.

With how politically weaponized the FBI has become in recent years, I personally would want to do everything I could to avoid attracting any attention from them.

Not worth it to watch some shitty trash TV or movie, personally.

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33. soulof+9J[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-10-12 20:20:10
>>kube-s+uc
Ha, well Kant's universal moral law is really what I'm getting at here. It transcends the current, highly immoral, Western legal system which is often confused with universal law.
replies(1): >>kube-s+uN
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34. Fervic+cM[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-10-12 20:33:51
>>kube-s+uc
He kant.
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35. kube-s+uN[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-10-12 20:40:40
>>soulof+9J
Yeah, Kant wasn't a fan of 'law' in the legal sense, but natural and moral law does respect property rights. I'm not really aware of a deontological argument against IP.
replies(1): >>soulof+S01
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36. nrb+nS[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-10-12 21:00:21
>>bee_ri+we
> It breaks down a bit at the edges though, because extreme violations of speed limits can result in harm and death, while copyright is just lost profits.

It’s not remotely the same amount of harm, but mass violations of copyright seem to be able to end series and potentially production companies. Netflix and Hulu appear to be making go/no-go decisions about a series after the first few days/weeks of viewership data.

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37. samatm+IV[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-10-12 21:10:45
>>promet+4b
> The Constitution has no inherent authority or obligation. It has no authority or obligation at all, unless as a contract between man and man. And it does not so much as even purport to be a contract between persons now existing. It purports, at most, to be only a contract between persons living eighty years ago. And it can be supposed to have been a contract then only between persons who had already come to years of discretion, so as to be competent to make reasonable and obligatory contracts. Furthermore, we know, historically, that only a small portion even of the people then existing were consulted on the subject, or asked, or permitted to express either their consent or dissent in any formal manner. Those persons, if any, who did give their consent formally, are all dead now. Most of them have been dead forty, fifty, sixty, or seventy years. And the Constitution, so far as it was their contract, died with them. They had no natural power or right to make it obligatory upon their children. It is not only plainly impossible, in the nature of things, that they could bind their posterity, but they did not even attempt to bind them. That is to say, the instrument does not purport to be an agreement between any body but “the people” then existing; nor does it, either expressly or impliedly, assert any right, power, or disposition, on their part, to bind any body but themselves.

Lysander Spooner goes on to expand this theme greatly.

Foundational essay, well worth a read: https://oll.libertyfund.org/title/spooner-no-treason-no-vi-t...

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38. alvare+tZ[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-10-12 21:23:46
>>bee_ri+Cc
Here in HN it is frowned upon, but I do sometimes like to exagerate a point to show perspective, first.

Now that we can agree that law can not be followed 100% of time let's kill the comparison with genocide.

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39. soulof+S01[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-10-12 21:29:06
>>kube-s+uN
I don't think philosophy has caught up with the dizzing media landscape we exit in today. It's such a multifaceted problem.

Like others have mentioned, media is heavily shaping culture today, and is responsible for a large amount of cultural dissemination and public discourse. And today, to be a patron of the arts, you are looking at an increasingly large library of works which you need affordable access to. Knowledge shouldn't be pay-to-play.

With companies like Disney eating the lion's share, we should worry about what kind of legal landscape a continued, coordinated lobbying effort could lead to. Remember the shock around the DMCA? We still have massive and systematic abuse issues because of it. A chilling effect is well-established.

With the way Microsoft, Apple and other vendors are moving, locked down computing platforms are becoming a silent reality. Thanks to corporate astroturfing efforts, cloud fingerprinting is being normalized as the moral choice. What's next, screen fingerprinting to ensure our greedy, multi-headed subscription serpent overlord always gets its piece of the pie?

Eventually, unchecked corporate lobbying in areas like IP will lead to an inscrutable system of governance hiding behind the opt-in curtain, which completely sidesteps the ever-evolving system of rights envisioned by our past democratic visionaries.

replies(1): >>kube-s+181
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40. kube-s+181[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-10-12 21:54:41
>>soulof+S01
Well, philosophy is one of those disciplines in which work is always being done, but it's takes time for any work to become well recognized. Some day, some ethics ideas written by someone living right now will be something everyone reads about in philosophy 101. But we can still apply many of the frameworks from hundreds of years ago to current ethics problems. There are no completely new moral ideas, everything is similar, influenced by, or related to ideas that others have come up with.

As you point out, there are plenty of utilitarian and/or consequentialist arguments for piracy. From an academically philosophical perspective, these aren't "right" or "wrong" arguments, they're just from a different school of philosophical thought than some other arguments which may dismiss concerns of utility or consequence.

a consequentialist might say: "Piracy is fine because the DMCA causes chilling effects which are bad, regardless of the wishes of the author."

a utilitarian might say: "Knowledge is good for society so piracy provides greater utility for mankind, more than it harms a few authors."

but a deontologist might say: "we have to respect the rights given to someone to reproduce their work, regardless of bad consequences"

All of these are academically valid arguments, regardless of which one any of us subscribe to.

replies(1): >>soulof+uj1
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41. soulof+uj1[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-10-12 22:49:04
>>kube-s+181
A pragmatist might say, "Piracy can only be contextualized and not objectively analyzed".

It's a completely different set of arguments from someone like us who can object on aesthetic and philosophical grounds, vs. a poor kid from Brazil who just wants some cultural exposure.

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