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Linux on the laptop works so damn well that it’s boring

submitted by tonyst+(OP) on 2022-09-24 17:04:50 | 587 points 618 comments
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4. theome+p1[view] [source] 2022-09-24 17:14:25
>>tonyst+(OP)
https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fclivethompson.medium.c...
6. csdvrx+E1[view] [source] 2022-09-24 17:15:51
>>tonyst+(OP)
If you want fun, grab an exotic machine like a X1 Fold with a weird CPU (i5-L16G7 with 1 fast Sunny Cove core, 4 small Tremont cores) and start hacking: even on Windows, everything works more or less (https://csdvrx.github.io/) but the asymmetric CPU architecture gives me ideas about core pinning for some daemons.

On Linux, right now I'm looking at why the i915 style GPU (9840) gives me "Failed to get size of gamma for output default" in xrandr, which prevents redshift from working.

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17. mdanie+u2[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-24 17:20:47
>>azangr+g1
replace the "medium.com" with "scribe.rip" for a pure(?) html version: https://clivethompson.scribe.rip/linux-on-the-laptop-works-s... or evidently 12ft.io also works as submitted by the sibling comment (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32964606)
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23. thesup+N2[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-24 17:22:02
>>aarpmc+J1
>> PopOS (I know there’s some absurd punctuation involved in the name but I don’t remember what it is)

It is: Pop!_OS

https://pop.system76.com/

It basically a customized Ubuntu with perfect driver support for System76 hardware.

I use it on a 2015 Meerkat (https://system76.com/desktops/meerkat) and it works great.

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27. acidbu+33[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-24 17:23:05
>>j7ake+H1
My System76 lemur pro gets 14 hours.

https://system76.com/laptops/lemur

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29. btdmas+a3[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-24 17:24:07
>>stoply+V1
Have you checked ArchWiki? For example, it provides the kernel command line for enabling all speakers on the y530: https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Lenovo_IdeaPad_y530
58. unpopu+35[view] [source] 2022-09-24 17:34:53
>>tonyst+(OP)
I wish Ubuntu didn't kill Wubi tho. We used that at my first workplace on laptops with Windows and it was so damn good. There is a new fork [0] but it's a hit and miss with modern UEFI and especially with Windows 11 (had to use it for some reason). And other distros never had an option like this afaik, none does as of today. But I know it's all about Docker, VMs, or WSL nowadays yet Wubi covered a niche segment which was pefect.

0, https://github.com/hakuna-m/wubiuefi

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79. throwa+d6[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-24 17:41:48
>>noirbo+Z4
Is it because of their switch from a realtek chip to tempo? It's broken on Windows too ... https://community.frame.work/t/no-driver-for-tempo-audio-chi...

All platforms have issues, especially with uncommon hardware combinations. But if you buy any mainstream device odds of it working in linux are probably similar to the odds of it working in windows.

For older hardware the odds are much better that it will work out of the box in linux.

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85. yakubi+P6[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-24 17:44:39
>>smolde+T5
OOM killer is a pseudosolution to an artificially created problem.

https://lwn.net/Articles/104185/

88. neilv+T6[view] [source] 2022-09-24 17:45:00
>>tonyst+(OP)
> It was not always thus. Back in the late 90s and early 00s, installing Linux on one's home computer was a rather terrifying affair, requiring a ton of abstruse tweaking using the command line.

For those not in Linux back then, here's some examples from that era:

https://www.neilvandyke.org/linux-thinkpad-560e/

https://www.neilvandyke.org/cheap-pc-2000/

https://www.neilvandyke.org/lab-linux-1999/

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95. mdanie+87[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-24 17:45:53
>>throwa+N5
I believe this is where I first learned about it: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28838053
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124. btdmas+c9[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-24 18:00:23
>>unpopu+35
UNetbootin[1] still works fine last I tried it.

[1] https://unetbootin.github.io/

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128. mid-ki+v9[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-24 18:02:18
>>otikik+R8
I've mentioned this in a different subcomment, but I should note that the laptop I mentioned in the parent post is "ubuntu certified"[1]. I realize now that this means much less than having "official" support from the manufacturer, but there's certainly a lot of misleading bits about the way these things are marketed.

[1]: https://ubuntu.com/certified/201808-26387

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146. marcod+Fa[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-24 18:11:59
>>onetim+M7
> but even having to install new firmware when you are using Linux can cause major headaches and worries.

I thought lvfs ( https://fwupd.org/ ) had fixed that.

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164. odysse+2c[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-24 18:19:25
>>london+E5
I had a Thinkpad with Ubuntu and still had many of the problems you mention and more:

- Barely ever waking from sleep, especially with external monitor connected

- Screen brightness keyboard controls didn't work (needed to use a CLI tool to control gamma as a hacky workaround)

- Had to power cycle repeatedly to get to a desktop when booting

- Not working reliably in clamshell mode

- Randomly forgetting external monitor scaling

- Accessibility features like screen zooming are very poorly done compared to Mac's Ctrl-MouseWheel (which zooms entire screen without crashing)

Things actually got worse as I upgraded to newer kernels. The wake from sleep problem is the #1 productivity killer I had. I had to leave the machine running all the time just to do my job.

A good post on why Linux has so much trouble waking is: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25386605

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166. onetim+oc[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-24 18:21:17
>>marcod+Fa
ya that service has been very helpful and tracking issues is great, but there can still be issues when installing. For example, I am dealing with a bug found in this list of issues: https://github.com/fwupd/firmware-lenovo/issues on one of my laptops.
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179. pizza2+bd[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-24 18:26:25
>>codedo+xa
To an extent, there is; Ubuntu holds a list of certified hardware, including laptops: https://ubuntu.com/certified.

Notably, the latest Dell XPS is certified.

215. rhyn00+Lg[view] [source] 2022-09-24 18:56:27
>>tonyst+(OP)
I would add that the linux-ready boutique vendors like system76, tuxedo computers, framework are also options if you don't want to fuss with drivers and what not, but still want to run linux. I definitely agree that linux doesn't run super smooth on all hardware, but it's not hard to find hardware these days where it does run smooth.

I came across tuxedo computers randomly one day, and gave it a shot. Very impressed, and am extremely happy with my tuxedo pulse 15 gen2 - running their supported version of Ubuntu+KDE, that just works out of the box. Only thing I can complain about is that: speakers are not great (but I use headphones 90% time anyways), and KDE doesn't support independent resolution scaling (I need 125% for laptop display but 100% for external monitor), so it's a bit hacky to get scaling the way I want. However, everything else runs perfectly and smoothly.

It's best laptop I've ever owned for linux. It is quite, portable, moderate power laptop, for fair price. I gave my wife my Macbook air M1 over this one. While the M1 CPU/GPU is a little more powerful than Ryzen 5700U (8 core), I get more ram (32gb 3200mhz), bigger and faster disk (1TB 980 pro pci 4), more battery life (18hr idle, 10+ working) for similar price. It's also repairable, w/ removable standard components (not cpu tho). Linux running SMOOTH.

Basically with these type of vendors, you don't need to struggle or sacrifice (much) to run linux anymore. Tuxedo computers [1] has many more models worth checking out, like with high end GPUs or smaller/more portable (even one that support external liquid cooling and an rtx 3080ti lol).

[1] Tuxedo Computer (notebooks) https://www.tuxedocomputers.com/en/Linux-Hardware/Linux-Note... [2] Pulse 15 gen2 : https://www.tuxedocomputers.com/en/Linux-Hardware/Notebooks/...

220. isodev+8h[view] [source] 2022-09-24 19:00:12
>>tonyst+(OP)
That’s a great story, and I’m happy that this is possible today. There is nothing technically limiting Linux desktops from offering a fantastic experience apart from walled gardens trying to keep eyeballs in their corner. Speaking of, unfortunately, Microsoft will be retiring Teams for Linux later this year

https://www.omglinux.com/the-official-microsoft-teams-app-fo...

234. LinuxB+9j[view] [source] 2022-09-24 19:15:56
>>tonyst+(OP)
I've had mixed results on laptops. I've never bothered to make the fingerprint reader work, that just isn't my thing. I've had decent luck with all the standard functions video, audio, storage, keyboard, mousepad, wifi on most models of Lenovo and Dell in the last decade. I've had mixed results on Asus laptops, especially the recent ones. The biggest challenge I've had is finding out ahead of time what wifi chipset is used and this has only affected me when using tools like aircrack-ng [1]. The chipset can vary even within the same make/model of laptop depending on when it was manufactured. The way I quickly test how a laptop will behave is to boot Kali Linux [2] into ram. Sometimes a sales person at a computer store would let me do this on a demo model even though they probably should not.

[1] - https://www.aircrack-ng.org/

[2] - https://www.kali.org/

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320. mminer+fq[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-24 20:09:03
>>jll29+jn
The worst thing about broken touchpads is that they're impossible to turn off in Ubuntu: https://askubuntu.com/questions/1408042/touchpad-cant-be-dis...

There's a button to do so, but it's just been broken for months with no fix other than uninstalling part of the last update. Given that Linux typically has no palm detection, it's really a frustrating experience to use on a laptop.

364. raffra+Xv[view] [source] 2022-09-24 21:00:27
>>tonyst+(OP)
...unlike the Raspberry Pi. About a year ago I installed a Raspberry Pi 4B+ behind my 40" monitor, with Kodi + some DLNA stuff on it. It almost works, but it has hard fails in enough important areas that I've given up on it.

- No sleep / standby mode (lowest power is 'idle')

- No Wake On Lan, so if you power it off completely, you have to cycle the power on the power supply (not easy, since mine is behind the "TV")

- Chromium crashes on YouTube (https://forums.raspberrypi.com/viewtopic.php?t=323640)

- Firefox ESR doesn't play sound on most YouTube videos (https://raspberrypi.stackexchange.com/questions/109185/some-...)

- Can't run Windows apps (eg the amazing MusicBee) because it's ARM

- Shitty disk support (stuck with SD card or USB)

I gave an old ThinkPad T430 to my 9 year old nephews about a year ago, and they've completely trashed it: busted screen hinges, broken backlight and cracked case. I'm gonna remove the faulty screen and permanently hook it up to the TV as a "headless laptop" (https://old.reddit.com/r/thinkpad/comments/jt2p8j/i_see_your...). Because guess what? Linux runs boringly well on it. Also: built-in keyboard, low-power standby mode, trackpad, proper SSD and more useful ports than the Pi.

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393. btdmas+Tz[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-24 21:38:16
>>stoply+Xn
That was only an example, you want to find the article for your specific laptop (you haven't mentioned the model, so I can't help!) and try the instructions there. If that article does not exist, or is not useful, you could always try this generic PulseAudio virtual device solution: https://askubuntu.com/questions/78174/play-sound-through-two...

(Side note: intel refers to the sound card, not the CPU.)

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418. jonas-+VF[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-24 22:29:07
>>codedo+xa
There exist many entries on the ArchWiki. The ArchWiki is (IMO) one of the best sources for linux in general not only archlinux. E.g. this entry for Lenovo[0] has a huge list with Lenovo Laptops and what works/doesn't work. There are also some tweaks you can apply for specific Models.

[0] https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Laptop/Lenovo

429. majorm+TK[view] [source] 2022-09-24 23:09:29
>>tonyst+(OP)
Sure, the overall "eventually stuff gets supported" story is good. And people hold on to hardware a lot more than they used to. This guy's using a T420. That's an 11 year old machine! Older hardware has always worked much better under Linux than newer hardware (sometimes for longer than it's worked well on Windows).

It's also pretty amazing that there are now some major-vendor Linux-out-of-the-box laptops. But the pool is still not all that large.

I was just looking at an Asus Zenbook S 13 OLED and Google suggests ... nah. Very un-boring.

E.g.

https://zentalk.asus.com/en/discussion/63549/linux-on-zenboo...

https://www.reddit.com/r/linuxhardware/comments/wv2c28/anyon...

Fun shit like "keyboard doesn't work yet" plus various other nothing-surprising-to-me-after-doing-this-for-20-years stuff like weird audio driver patch crap.

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468. autoex+gX[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-25 01:35:43
>>a-dub+xy
> i suspect a lot of the bad press they get comes from the fact that there's a lot of very sharp eyes making use of their gear and that similar issues happen in other lines but just go unnoticed.

No, it's really just them. They worked hard to earn that bad press. It's not even that they keep pre-installing malware, but how they've handled it when they're caught speaks volumes.

When the truth about superfish came out first they fiercely denied there was any security risk to anyone ("we have thoroughly investigated this technology and do not find any evidence to substantiate security concerns”), then eventually they admitted it was a problem and said they'd stop shipping devices infected by it, but continued to anyway more than a month later (https://arstechnica.netblogpro.com/information-technology/20...) and the instructions they gave users for removing the offending software still left systems vulnerable while giving people a false sense of security. When they were caught doing that they issued new instructions and those still left users vulnerable!! (https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/feb/20/lenovo-ap...)

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492. broodb+e51[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-25 03:30:41
>>nsilve+bo
Pretty sure that's a known Framework hardware limitation, see https://community.frame.work/t/high-battery-drain-during-sus...
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496. dalius+291[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-25 04:19:44
>>andrew+Ar
Maybe it was turned off on your device https://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/linux-laptop-and-ne...
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501. kaba0+Ie1[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-25 05:52:34
>>_skel+Eu
Here is a comment that may solve it from a recent thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32896463

Though it has nothing to do with Wayland before the flamewar starts, it’s just libinput and gtk maintainers not agreeing upon whose responsibility is it to handle scroll events (it is gtk’s though, libinput doesn’t have enough context to implement kinetic scrolling, so it really should be the framework that adds semantic meaning to an event stream)

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505. maxbai+Df1[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-25 06:14:34
>>jll29+Eo
I have been using this on Intel SL3 works great https://github.com/linux-surface/linux-surface

Also works on AMD but did get crashes sometime and sometimes need to boot into Windows to reset audio….

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553. ChuckN+sG1[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-25 13:13:55
>>kaba0+8G1
>but don’t attack an open-source project, and at least not on false claims

What did I attack and which false claims did I make?

>what I prefer in the latter is that I actually have a chance of fixing problems

What I and most consumers want is a product that does not require fixing or learning how to fix things. I and most other people don't want to play sys-admin at home despite having cut my teeth in it and making it a career. I work in cybersecurity so all our workforce is fluent in linux which we daily drive at work and yet at home everyone of us only uses Windows and/or MacOS on our personal machines with only one guy using Linux religiously at home.

When even experienced linux users don't want it in their personal lives that says something. Even though we know how to fix things but our free time is much more valuable. Nobody likes a desktop that stutters and ruins your immersion and productivity, especially if you're running a system that costs several grand.[1]

Maybe when the hardware manufacturers can work with the bazaar engineers and finally agree on something and work together with the desktop environment devs on how to make Wayland a fully feature complete drop in replacement for X11 with no rough edges, quirks or issues and have feature parity, smoothness and polish to Windows/MacOS, we can finally have the "year of the (polished) Linux desktop". Until then, I and most consumers will continue to use whichever OS provides the best experience with least amount of friction.

[1] https://youtu.be/moYwK0YMFjQ?t=610

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593. int_19+4y3[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-26 00:57:05
>>otikik+R8
https://us.starlabs.systems/
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601. factor+le4[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-26 08:39:01
>>kache_+f7
> Though, you do need to know how to use a computer to set things up properly.

Thanks for that, I'll make a note to how to use a computer.

Meanwhile this is Linus Torvalds opinion on Nvidia https://www.phoronix.com/news/MTEyMTc

Nvidia driver issues is a public, well-known challenge when it comes to Linux.

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609. p4bl0+W36[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-26 20:21:13
>>trelan+iq3
I don't understand what you mean by "white box".

Just look for yourself it's really not hard to find: https://www.dell.com/en-us/lp/linux-systems

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615. Teknom+8Id[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-09-29 06:40:53
>>genewi+4G4
> I was going to cry foul since 5.18 and 5.19 aren't considered "stable" by most maintainers

Distro maintainers certainly, unless you're Gentoo, Arch, or one of the other mostly-bleeding-edge rolling release distros. The "stable" kernel is whatever the current release is and "longterm" kernels are typically the last major kernel version released in a given year.

https://www.kernel.org/category/releases.html

Most distributions pick whatever the latest longterm kernel is when they cut releases. Sometimes they don't and things get strange, such as when Canonical chose kernel 4.15 for Ubuntu 18.04, requiring them to maintain an unsupported kernel themselves. IIRC that was because a bunch of AMD CPU and GPU support was added in 4.15.

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617. albert+dpn[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-10-02 09:50:16
>>hedora+M32
https://www.reviewgeek.com/131649/spotify-is-installing-itse...
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