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Testimony to House committee by former Facebook executive Tim Kendall

submitted by aaronb+(OP) on 2020-09-24 15:27:03 | 266 points 195 comments
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3. 082349+28[view] [source] 2020-09-24 16:04:14
>>aaronb+(OP)
A 1952 prediction of a dystopia we haven't yet reached: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24576623
6. droopy+x8[view] [source] 2020-09-24 16:05:56
>>aaronb+(OP)
>"In 2016, internal analysis at Facebook found 64% of all extremist group joins were due to their own recommendation tools. Yet repeated attempts to counteract this problem were ignored or shut down."

If thats accurate, it's freaking me out while thinking about Facebook's role in the Myanmar genocide https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/15/technology/myanmar-facebo...

9. mlilli+s9[view] [source] 2020-09-24 16:09:33
>>aaronb+(OP)
Livestream for Hearing on “Mainstreaming Extremism: Social Media’s Role in Radicalizing America" is still going on: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mstNE5KIM-g
11. kawfey+B9[view] [source] 2020-09-24 16:10:25
>>aaronb+(OP)
Coincidentally, Behind the Bastards podcast has put out a two-part show on Mark Zuckerberg's background and the atrocities Facebook has let happen on their platform - https://www.iheart.com/podcast/105-behind-the-bastards-29236...

BTB is quite inflammatory, but the host eloquently puts together a lot of really damning and shocking stories from inside Facebook's doors.

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26. 082349+rc[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-09-24 16:23:28
>>nahuel+N9
If indistinguishable, would that be a dystopia or a utopia[1]? At least this is Hacker News, not /r/totallynotrobots. Maybe if we gaze long enough into a procedural abyss, the abyss will gaze back?

https://xkcd.com/810/

Bonus clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DH76CZbqoqI

[1] if the line between dys- and u-topia depends upon prevalence of man-portable SIGINT devices: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24069572

Further playing "bot or not?" we have the Stasi (human) vs NSA (automated): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24470017

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43. jakear+Wd[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-09-24 16:29:48
>>Aarons+Rb
This thread* is a good glimpse, they apparently have teams at FB dedicated to creating propaganda touting the great cause FB is working towards. Those that remain working there have seemingly bought in.

* https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24510904

54. mindca+Sf[view] [source] 2020-09-24 16:37:08
>>aaronb+(OP)
There are very similar issues with YouTube's "Rabbit Hole of Extremism" [1]. YT's algo has noticed that "mild" extremist content gets views and by feeding you progressively more extreme content in series, people get sucked in. I expect this wasn't even planned. It was generated.

It got my father. Living in rural area, cable/satellite TV became too expensive and low quality. So, us kids paid for an internet connection for him. Given only YouTube to inform him, he went from a generally relaxed redneck to talking about how "black community is a lost cause" and "we need to glass (nuke) the middle east and take their oil" in a very short time.

We got Netflix for him and he's calmed back down some. But, definitely not back to where he was before.

[1] https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/06/08/technology/yo...

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56. ALittl+hg[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-09-24 16:39:30
>>paloal+Jc
Plus, I believe he's selling products that'll help you combat the addiction he helped hook you on.

https://inthemoment.io/

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64. mthoms+xi[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-09-24 16:49:25
>>kbos87+Pg
The dividing line over whether an addiction or behaviour is "bad" is whether or not it negatively affects your life and/or the lives of those around you.

https://www.asam.org/Quality-Science/definition-of-addiction

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101. Andrew+Ho[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-09-24 17:22:32
>>dylan6+ac
Tobacco use as a percentage of the population has consistently declined by .5% since data started to be gathered the 1960s [0].

The Master Settlement Agreement in 1998 [1] had no statistical impact on the rate reduction of smoking - the rate of decline of smokers is the same now as it was in 1965.

The tobacco industry is more profitable than ever and they are diversifying into nicotine delivery vehicles like vapes, gum [2]. So the underlying goal - increase nicotine dependence across the global population and capture the nicotine consumption market is still going strong.

Much like the desire to be intoxicated, the desire to influence people will never go away. It's baked into our biology. Everyone in this thread interacting with each other is trying to influence everyone else. Facebook etc... is just doing successfully what Bernays dreamed of.

You can beat these platforms all you want - just like the tobacco industry was beat. The problems will just surface elsewhere in a different form.

Attack the root issue - ban advertising. oh and do it in a way that allows for "free speech." The challenge of the century.

[0]https://www.lung.org/research/trends-in-lung-disease/tobacco...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tobacco_Master_Settlement_Agre...

[2]https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-tobacco-industry-rebounds-f...

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105. dwiel+et[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-09-24 17:48:32
>>ls612+ji
Even chemical dependency is more complicated than initially thought. See the rat park experiment.

https://www.psychiatrictimes.com/view/what-does-rat-park-tea...

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119. dcolki+kz[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-09-24 18:17:17
>>munifi+at
The difference is that it's unquestionable that cigarettes are enormously harmful. To claim that the case against social media is anywhere near as clear-cut as tobacco is to do a disservice to the heroic public health efforts it took to cut down on smoking.

With social media, anecdotal accusations abound of negative impacts on mental health or political polarization. Yet the most carefully conducted research shows no evidence that either[1][2] of these charges are true to any meaningful degree. Simply put the academic evidence is not contagious with the journalistic outrage.

What's more likely is the panic over social media is mirroring previous generations' moral panic over new forms of media. When the literary novel first gained popularity, social guardians in the older generation worried that it would corrupt the youth.[3]

The same story played out with movies, rock music, video games, and porn among other things. The dynamic is propelled by old media having a vested interest in whipping up a frenzy against its new media competitors. In almost every case the concerns proved unfounded or overblown. I'd be pretty surprised if social media proved the exception, when we've always seen the same story again and again.

[1]https://twitter.com/DegenRolf/status/1217307200517033986 [2]https://twitter.com/degenrolf/status/986146855007539201 [3]https://www.economist.com/1843/2020/01/20/an-18th-century-mo...

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127. liabil+nI[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-09-24 19:00:43
>>godsha+tx
The desperation I've seen in addicted gamblers in Las Vegas doesn't seem so different from the despair I've seen from junkies. Both of these are addictions to which some people lose everything.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/jul/19/problem-gamb...

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144. search+oR[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-09-24 19:52:00
>>nahuel+N9
The key to making a bot indistinguishable is to mix patterns in it along with machine generation.

For example, simply providing an alternative to pay walled article is a recurring task people do here. It's easy to automate and doesn't raise eye brows. It raises someone's perception of the profile if they were to do a quick check. Another one include providing alternative to products. It's easy. Search through product hunt or other sites for results or wishing someone on their product launch/show HN which again doesn't require contextual understanding to the same degree.

Big tech, philosophical, news media, etc threads are predictable. T5 and electra models from Google are good at filling the blanks (in contrast to gpt which generates texts in forward fashion) so they can be used to make unique sentences following a pattern. They are more meaningful at the cost of less randomness.

Many posts on HN appear first on lobster, small subreddits, GitHub trending, and popular twitter accounts. You could simply fetch the links at a random interval within a timezone and post unique links here.

You can target a demography who is least likely to suspect it's a bot. HN is siloed in many small parts despite having the same front page. You can predict which users are likely to post in certain threads and what their age demography is i.e Emacs anything. Database of HN is available on big query.

You can train a response to suspicious comment calling them a bot: That hurts. I am not a native English speaker. Sorry, if I offended you. or Please check the guidelines...

There are many techniques to make a sophisticated bot. ;)

https://ai.googleblog.com/2020/02/exploring-transfer-learnin...

https://github.com/fuzhenxin/Style-Transfer-in-Text

https://ai.googleblog.com/2020/03/more-efficient-nlp-model-p...

https://console.cloud.google.com/marketplace/details/y-combi...

It wouldn't surprise me if a non significant number of users here were bots.

I am more interested in the question: Does the difference matter especially in text as long as a bot user is a more useful user?

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153. TylerE+4W[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-09-24 20:15:33
>>pc86+UJ
There were actual "medical cigarettes" sold in the past.

https://www.pharmacytimes.com/contributor/timothy-aungst-pha...

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159. TeMPOr+841[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-09-24 21:00:57
>>nickff+bV
> You originally posted that: (...) But changed it to: (...)

Yes, because I wanted to narrow down my originally too broad statement before picking on the generalization will derail the subthread (as it sometimes happens on HN).

> What do you see as the difference between "manipulative advertising" and regular "advertising", and how is either (or both) malicious?

I'm glad you asked! I wrote an essay on this very topic the other day: http://jacek.zlydach.pl/blog/2019-07-31-ads-as-cancer.html.

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