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Laying the foundation for Rust’s future

submitted by stevek+(OP) on 2020-08-18 14:59:38 | 643 points 180 comments
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15. gardaa+z5[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-08-18 15:23:11
>>oconno+45
Zig: https://ziglang.org/zsf/
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16. arusah+T5[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-08-18 15:24:27
>>oconno+45
Based on an inartful Googling, here are some additional ones:

* D [1]

* F# [2]

* Perl [3]

I'm sure there are more.

1: https://dlang.org/foundation/about.html 2: https://fsharp.org/ 3: https://www.perlfoundation.org/

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19. stevek+E6[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-08-18 15:26:51
>>oconno+45
"like this" is complicated, because different foundations do different things, but, beyond the Python Software Foundation, there is:

* The OpenJS Foundation (Node)

* Ruby Central is similar but also different

* Parrot (for Perl 6...) had a foundation, not clear on what the project is like now though

* https://www.perlfoundation.org/

And of course, many many foundations that support open source projects that aren't programming languages.

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20. MaxBar+L6[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-08-18 15:27:29
>>0xcoff+s4
This topic keeps coming up. Mozilla is viewed as a bloated entity whose only legitimate activity is maintaining Firefox. No-one cares about the other initiatives they spend money and resources on, and they especially don't want their donations going toward Mozilla's overpaid leadership.

People would like to donate directly to Firefox, but as things stand, this isn't an option. This isn't because Firefox falls under the Mozilla brand, it's because Mozilla choose not to accept Firefox-specific donations.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24141852

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24129794

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24129926

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22. aloisd+V6[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-08-18 15:28:23
>>oconno+45
The first coming to my mind is the .NETfoundation https://dotnetfoundation.org/

baked by Microsoft but more and more community driven

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32. dlesli+X8[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-08-18 15:38:36
>>whyeve+P6
2% of annual net-revenues from MozCorp go to the Foundation; and Google's deal is with the Foundation, but I'm iffy on how much makes it straight into MozCorp.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozilla_Foundation#Financing

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45. stevek+Hb[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-08-18 15:50:45
>>jonese+ka
I appreciate that. It ends up being a small diff but does help clarify, I think. Thank you! https://github.com/rust-lang/blog.rust-lang.org/pull/674
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57. Zsolt+Lf[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-08-18 16:07:32
>>oconno+45
The Elixir / Erlang community: https://erlef.org/
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65. aazaa+1j[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-08-18 16:21:16
>>M2Ys4U+tb
Where else?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rust_Belt

One hundred years from now, nobody would suspect that the original meaning of the term "Rust Belt" had something to do with industrial decline.

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70. autarc+qk[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-08-18 16:27:45
>>oconno+45
The Perl Foundation (https://www.perlfoundation.org/) has existed for many years. I've been a board member for a year or so.

We began life primarily to support the YAPC (Yet Another Perl Conference) community-run conferences, but now we also support development of the language itself.

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79. marcin+yn[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-08-18 16:41:52
>>freshs+Ll
Mitchell Baker is paid by the Mozilla Corporation which in turn is paid by it's search deals. She is paid $0 by the Mozilla Foundation and it's donations. Feel free to checkout the foundation financial statement from 2018 (it's on page 7):

https://assets.mozilla.net/annualreport/2018/mozilla-2018-fo...

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83. stevek+Uo[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-08-18 16:48:24
>>xcamba+to
https://oxide.computer/

I wrote a blog post about it https://steveklabnik.com/writing/today-is-my-first-day-at-ox...

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84. MaxBar+7p[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-08-18 16:49:39
>>freshs+Ll
You might like this chart:

https://twitter.com/BrendanEich/status/1217512049716035584

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86. fuoqi+Mp[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-08-18 16:52:21
>>stevek+cc
I really hope that a neutral jurisdiction will be chosen. RISC-V is a good example to follow, here is a quote from their website:

Incorporation in Switzerland has the effect of calming concerns of political disruption to the open collaboration model. RISC-V International does not maintain any commercial interest in products or services as a non-profit, membership organization. There have not been any export restrictions on RISC-V in the US and we have complied with all US laws. The move does not circumvent any existing restrictions, but rather alleviates uncertainty going forward.

https://riscv.org/about/history/

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88. dlesli+7r[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-08-18 16:57:55
>>dangoo+Mm
I did more digging, looks like it's with the corp:

> In CY 2018, Mozilla Corporation generated $435.702 million from royalties, subscriptions and advertising revenue compared to $542 million in CY 2017. 2017 was an outlier, due in part to changes in the search revenue deal that was negotiated that year. Despite the year-over-year change, Mozilla remains in a strong financial position with cash reserves to support continued innovation, partnerships and diversification of the Firefox product lines to fuel its organizational mission.

However, as noted earlier, the corp does pay for the foundation's advocacy:

> A portion of search revenue combined with grants and donations is used to fuel the advocacy and movement building work of the Mozilla Foundation and its broad network of supporters of Mozilla’s mission.

https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/foundation/annualreport/2018/

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90. MaxBar+os[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-08-18 17:03:57
>>marcin+bq
Sure, you were right to point out that freshsqueeze was incorrect in saying they funnel donations to their overpaid CEO, but the fungibility point is an important one.

A related point on fungibility turned up in earlier discussions: donating directly to Firefox might not count for much if Mozilla balance it out by redirecting the same sum of their general fund away from Firefox. [0][1]

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24142097

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24131981

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102. qppo+Bz[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-08-18 17:37:19
>>dcgude+Bk
Disclaimer: I'm American.

Our government has repeatedly made it policy to block access to software of domestic origin through export controls [0] [1]

Historically I'd argue most nations could trust the US government only to wield economic sanctions against our adversaries, but the current administration has made all nations our adversary.

I can see a real possibility of the current administration enacting export controls on the European Union for a perceived slight against the President, and Congress will not stop him. For example, if crates.io is an American-based software service, there is a real possibility that the US could ban the owners from allowing access from EU IPs.

Granted, the same is true of GitHub, npm, freaking google... but the tl;dr is that I don't think you can trust us today or tomorrow. I don't trust my government, why should you?

[0] https://techcrunch.com/2019/07/29/github-ban-sanctioned-coun...

[1] https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2019/08/us-export-controls-and...

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106. beefha+5B[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-08-18 17:45:28
>>M2Ys4U+tb
Nitpick: The name of the Swiss entity appears to be “RISC-V International Association”, notably an association, not a foundation.

[1] https://riscv.org/about/history/#international

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109. _lbaq+CC[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-08-18 17:51:49
>>oconno+45
https://scala.epfl.ch

"A new not-for-profit center established at EPFL."

113. whynot+vF[view] [source] 2020-08-18 18:03:30
>>stevek+(OP)
I tried getting into Rust, but found its ownership model to be a bit too cumbersome (for me, maybe not for you.)

I'm playing with various PLs designed for safe concurrency, including this one called Pony:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24201754

Hopefully not off topic, as both Rust and Pony share a similar agenda.

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117. mikeyo+wG[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-08-18 18:08:36
>>beefha+5B
Only because Switzerland doesn't have the typical 'Foundation' structure as found in the US. For all intents, it's a nonprofit Foundation but since they're now domiciled in Switzerland they use the "Association" nomenclature.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_association

From their registration:

> The purpose of the association is the promotion and development of free or open source hardware and software technologies and applications for use on computer systems with a focus on the development and implementation of a free and open RISC-V instruction set architecture (Instruction Set Architecture, ISA). The association pursues a non-profit and not a financial, self-serving or commercial purpose. For this purpose, the association can, among other things, promote and finance research and development initiatives and other activities and participate in other companies or cooperations that are geared towards the main purpose.

https://www.zefix.ch/en/search/entity/list/firm/1429598

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125. Xylaka+0M[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-08-18 18:33:52
>>qppo+Bz
> Historically I'd argue most nations could trust the US government only to wield economic sanctions against our adversaries, but the current administration has made all nations our adversary.

https://www.dw.com/de/us-senatoren-drohen-sassnitz-zu-schade...

US senators are threatening sanctions against the German harbor town of Sassnitz https://www.dw.com/de/us-senatoren-drohen-sassnitz-zu-schade... to prevent the nord stream gas pipeline from being built. They’d prefer if germany bought liquefied gas from the US. (It’s a bit more complicated than that, but the threat is a new escalation)

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133. canisz+FT[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-08-18 19:05:59
>>rectan+pD
Please stop this 501(c)(6) vs 501(c)(3) nonsense, it's just a tax status, the Trump Foundation as a 501(c)(3) and was dissolved, the tax status doesn't imply much outside of it being a non profit...

The most important thing is ensuring that the community has representation on the board and other governance structures. There are some organizations like the Apache Software Foundation that do an OK job at this, there are others that don't even offer projects/maintainers seats on the board.

There are also organizations like the Linux Foundation and Eclipse Foundation which essentially act as "Foundation as a Service" and host multiple foundations in one with different governance structures.

https://www.linuxfoundation.org/blog/2020/05/building-a-succ...

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134. rectan+KW[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-08-18 19:18:09
>>canisz+FT
The example of the Trump Foundation's dissolution in fact illustrates that the difference between non-profits is meaningful. Many of the activities of the Trump Foundation would have been fine for a (c)(6). A major rationale for dissolution was inappropriate use of tax-deductible donations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_J._Trump_Foundation#Div...

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138. whynot+m21[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-08-18 19:44:23
>>hu3+S01
Yes

From 2017,

https://blog.wallaroolabs.com/2017/10/why-we-used-pony-to-wr...

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144. notrid+hb1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-08-18 20:29:18
>>wirrbe+mw
> Why the need for the corporation?

The corporation basically exists to make the Google Search Deal possible. And considering that the search deal pays more than donations to the Apache Foundation and the Mozilla Foundation combined, it looks like it was a smart move.

* Total yearly income for the Apache foundation according to https://www.apache.org/foundation/docs/FY2020AnnualReport.pd... was 2.2M

* Total yearly income for the Mozilla Foundation according to https://assets.mozilla.net/annualreport/2018/mozilla-2018-fo... was $27M, about half from "program service revenue" (which means it came from the Corporation).

* According to https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/foundation/annualreport/2018/ (different document, but notice that both are for year 2018), the Mozilla Corporation got $435M from royalties, subscriptions, and advertising. In other words, while the Foundation is not technically allowed to give the Corporation money, that doesn't seem to be a problem.

I wouldn't ask why the need for the corporation. I'd ask why the need for the foundation. Though I'm pretty sure I know the answer: the foundation exists to limit the exploitative behaviour of the corporation. Remember: Benefit Corporations didn't exist at the time.

To quote their original documentation at https://www-archive.mozilla.org/reorganization/#q2

> By forming a commercial subsidiary, the revenue-generating activities of the new entity can provide funds to support development, testing, and productization of the various Mozilla open source technologies. This benefits both end-users of Firefox and Thunderbird, and developers and others who want to use the Mozilla open source code in various ways. Having the Mozilla Corporation handle revenue-generating activities associated with these products also allows the Mozilla Foundation to achieve its goals while still itself remaining a tax-exempt organization.

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166. Rabbit+TR1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-08-19 02:36:10
>>stevek+E6
Zig also debuted their foundation a few weeks ago; https://ziglang.org/zsf/
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170. roboca+Hj2[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-08-19 08:27:28
>>Xylaka+0M
Google translation of that link: https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&u=https%3...
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