https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value_pluralism
And modern psychology and neuroscience appear to back it up.
Ok apparently the original comment must have been edited, as its now deleted and removeddit shows less content than I remember this morning, but here's an article noting how the mayor framed things:
https://nypost.com/2020/06/06/buffalo-mayor-calls-protester-...
These are humans too and they're watching society (and especially media) totally dehumanize them. To some degree their anger is arguably justified.
I feel like it's impossible to get an accurate feel for how many people are protesting and what proportion of the population supports the protests. But I have a feeling it's a minority, maybe 10-30% of the population, in which case you cannot let a fraction of your population hold your entire city hostage, especially when opportunists are simultaneously looting and burning, though that seems to have calmed down recently.
Point being, if the protestors won't listen when asked to leave, and if they are disrupting the lives and livelihoods of 70-90% of the population, I don't see any option other than gradual escalation, which typically precedes gas and rubber bullets.
The police in a city in Canada went on strike in the late 1960s[1]. Things didn't go well. And we've already seen that American demographics are willing to burn and loot even with police present...so I don't mean to defend police but I really don't see anything good coming from police standing down or refusing to use force.
1.https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murray-Hill_riot
Edit: Downvotes are intended for discouraging low effort or otherwise poor comments, not to shame people for disagreeing. Whether you like it or not at least half the country supports police, they play an important role in society, and that makes this a discussion worth having.
And by the way, the point of protests is not to leave when people ask you to.
> “Some of them probably resigned because they support the officer,” said another officer with whom we spoke. “But, for many of us, that’s not true.”
[1]: https://www.wkbw.com/news/local-news/exclusive-two-buffalo-p...
Even not knowing what happened leading up to this, it's completely unacceptable behavior. The sheer number of videos just like this one make me ashamed that I ever gave the police the benefit of the doubt in the past.
https://mobile.twitter.com/jusalotofpain/status/126763842772...
You do not have the right to block traffic, march down the street etc. as an expression of your 1st amendment rights. You literally need a permit for most of that.
If the city puts down a curfew, you don't have any '1st Amendment rights' there either.
"doesn't mean the police get to illegally attack and disperse them."
Much of what we are seeing is not a legal expression of 1st Amendment rights at all, in which case breaking it up is not remotely illegal.
Some of it may be though.
Here are the ACLU's guidelines:
[1] https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/field_pdf_file/kyr_...
Your point still stands but fyi they were charged with assault today:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/06/buffalo-offi...
All this crap while covering their name, badge numbers and turning cameras off.
Police unions and their code of silence have enabled all sort of abusive behavior.
Also, this: https://theintercept.com/2019/08/30/nypd-anna-chambers-rape-...
Technically in NY and a few other states, the police can legally kidnap you and rape you without any liability.
[0] https://www.iheart.com/podcast/105-behind-the-bastards-29236...
One of these abilities is "incite unrest". Across several turns, this can enable a war of attrition ( a turn represents a year or a season I cannot remember). Death by 1000 cuts is a way to reduce the morale and economic output of a city in order to eventually conquer it.
Here is an excerpt from a forum dialogue about the game:
"Incite Unreast give "X" public order penality, depending on your agent skills and traits. Army gives "X" public order boost depending on army size and general traits and skills.
So yes.
The best tactic would put as many agents as you can get into far positions, champions can decrease public order as a passive, spy like you already know they pay for it, armies can raid, which decrease their upkeep and steal some of their income for youself."
https://steamcommunity.com/app/214950/discussions/0/61956934...
This is exactly what far right provocateurs want, to embed themselves inside legitimate protests and misbehave so that all are punished. Does that seem appropriate?
Also, both cases of brutality I described above happened in broad daylight. Please tell me how this specific incident[0] represents appropriate conduct by the police.
Doesn't make any of them look better but an interesting wrinkle.
https://www.wkbw.com/news/local-news/exclusive-two-buffalo-p...
The argument is the type of content, not the content itself. This content falls into mainstream events which would be against HN guidelines.
*edits for grammatical errors
It seems like many of the worst offenders have been mostly stagnant at their posts for many years - surely getting in fresh faces that have had a chance for more modern training would help break some of this mentality of "corps over country".
If you go read through US military documents about the use of force and rules of engagement you will find things like it requires _presidential approval_ to use riot control agents like pepper spray and tear gas. You aren't allowed to use non-lethal weapons like rubber bullets and bean bag guns without special training because they are dangerous if use improperly. It's against the law of war to target noncombatants (police have been specifically targeting journalists in a number of high profile incidents)
[0] https://www.trngcmd.marines.mil/Portals/207/Docs/TBS/B130936...
edit: I agree with the sister comment that the faulty police mentality largely comes from really bad training that instills the mind set that there is danger behind every corner.
It _was_ the cops, in the end, and she was eventually released on bail, but that shit is _nightmarish_. All of these videos that we have been seeing on social media are exposing how this style of policing that we live with today has absolutely no place in our society.
edit/ Found a link: https://www.kpbs.org/news/2020/jun/05/san-diego-police-offic...
It's all connected. The police unions push back hard against reforms in the prosecutors' office that might subject them to more scrutiny.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/06/us/police-unions-minneapo...
> In St. Louis, when Kim Gardner was elected the top prosecutor four years ago, she set out to rein in the city’s high rate of police violence. But after she proposed a unit within the prosecutor’s office that would independently investigate misconduct, she ran into the powerful local police union.
> The union pressured lawmakers to set aside the proposal, which many supported but then never brought to a vote. Around the same time, a lawyer for the union waged a legal fight to limit the ability of the prosecutor’s office to investigate police misconduct. The following year, a leader of the union said Ms. Gardner should be removed “by force or by choice.”
“It is an open secret,” he said, “that secret services of imperialist powers and foreign anti-Soviet centers actively join extremist nationalistic actions. Later on, they start playing the part of open instigators of hostile actions aimed at kindling hostility among nations. One should not underestimate the danger of this method of subversive activity.”
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1988-04-14-mn-1958-s...
(a red flag here is that the word "secret" is repeated rapidly in succession. Timeless "click" bait before Jobs ever visited Xerox).
We must first consider credibility of a dot com site. LA times does not represent vast majority. But this is from 1988. Fear mongering conspiracies can get tongues flapping. This is also before digital proliferation of media injection into cultures (click).
Behind "video games" are 20-50 year old minds digesting their environment and historical records made available to them by their coordinated government(s). My "real life" has not been affected by rioting and widespread respitory pandemic (destroyed storefronts are not selling things I want, economic furlough gifts me spare time and empty streets to hone new skills and more quickly traverse new domains). I am interested in the Phoenix that rises from this reset (dust is still in the air and must settle).
From the wikipedia article for Principle of Charity:
"The first to state this hermeneutic principle was Rabbi Meir ... 'A person does not say things without reason'."
The video game designers are steadily sculpting their audience's perception of "real life" via their own art form.
Your statement: " lots of major cities are still White Boys Clubs, police unions are bastions of corruption, racism is the norm," - is false, and almost bigoted.
The vast majority of PD's in America, the Police themselves generally reflect the racial reality of the communities they manage.
Chicago PD is about 50% White, 25% Black, and 25% Latino. [1] Black and Latino police are overrepresented those forces. This is not uncommon.
Why don't you have a look at the actual data - all the PD ethnic composition is right there for you to see.
It's false to suggest that these PDs are 'a bunch of White Boy Clubs' - when they literally are not, but not only that, just the opposite, fairly multicultural and excellent examples of 'functional diverse workforces'.
Ironically, the police are considerably better than hight tech at demonstrating how representation and getting along matters.
The fact that Police forces generally well reflect the ethnicity of the people they manage is probably something most people wouldn't necessarily know, and it's 'real-world information' that adds nuance to the situation. Unfortunately, since this reality doesn't fit the narrative, it doesn't get talked about.
Even this incident in Minnesota: we have 'assailants' who are diverse: two white cops, an Asian cop, and a cop 'of Colour' (possibly Black?) - does that fit the 'Team Racist Redneck' narrative? No.
It's ridiculous to suggest 'racism is the norm' on teams that are overwhelmingly diverse, wherein partners, managers, chefs, officials are of every stripe and creed. Also, it's kind of insulting.
So how could it be that people have this view of PD's when the data shows that this would be highly unlikely? Why is this kind of information not made part of the discussion on various media outlets? There's a lot more where this came from.
Populism leads to misinformation, poor analysis, and crude thinking. The situation is far more nuanced. We need dispassion and reason.
[1] https://www.governing.com/gov-data/safety-justice/police-dep...
It can also be both [1]. Sex while being detained by the police is not illegal in 35 states and this was really only brought to light after two plainclothes NYPD detectives took an 18 year old woman in an unmarked van and took turns having sex while the other drove. She claims it was rape and that she was handcuffed the entire time.
[1] https://www.aclu.org/blog/criminal-law-reform/reforming-poli...
In the Federal jury that later convicted Koon and Powell of Federal civil rights violations, there were likewise 9 of 12 white jurors.
Modern American jurors don't inherently judge on race. For another example, the jury that convicted congressman Mel Reynolds on all charges was half black:
https://www.nytimes.com/1995/08/23/us/congressman-convicted-...