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1. julien+(OP)[view] [source] 2019-11-26 21:34:46
I love how the answer given to this problem is more funding. Such an indication of what's wrong with modern education. This entire article is exposing the TI monopoly on calculators, getting 85-90% profit margins, and our solution is to strike to get taxpayer money to keep paying for the things? We should encourage competition.

Consider - an app that replicates this functionality on the phone, but tracks if the user at any point closes the app. This then is reported to the teacher so the teacher knows if there was any cheating.

replies(11): >>mc3+h1 >>gowld+P5 >>m463+ec >>enjoyy+Yd >>asdff+tk >>briand+nm >>jsf01+Vr >>smelen+Nu >>vkou+Rv >>boombo+cB >>punner+rM
2. mc3+h1[view] [source] 2019-11-26 21:44:19
>>julien+(OP)
What about a government mandated price ceiling? Anyone can bid to be the official supplier or calculators, as long as they sell to the government wholesale at a maximum of $20 (or whatever is a good price).
replies(1): >>joecoo+94
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3. joecoo+94[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-11-26 22:07:44
>>mc3+h1
With a price ceiling like that Casio would be pumping out calculators all day everyday just like F91W's.
4. gowld+P5[view] [source] 2019-11-26 22:18:55
>>julien+(OP)
Here's an idea: Stop trying force the backwards notion that using tools is cheating. There is 0 reason that any high-stakes test needs a calculator.

This simple change will improve the quality of education and reduce the cost of calculators.

replies(2): >>ddek+C9 >>vortic+M9
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5. ddek+C9[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-11-26 22:53:34
>>gowld+P5
I understand that there are virtually no tests that _actually_ need a TI calculator.

They're mad useful for learning - you can explore maths very effectively, but there's a learning curve to it.

I started using GraphNCalc83 on my iPhone (maybe available on Android - I'm sure an alternative is if not), and I question the real need for a £120 calculator.

replies(1): >>jacobo+Qn
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6. vortic+M9[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-11-26 22:54:25
>>gowld+P5
You can Google almost any high school math question verbatim and find a QA site with the verbatim answer, perhaps with numbers switched around.
replies(2): >>ben-sc+Ke >>saagar+Lg
7. m463+ec[view] [source] 2019-11-26 23:16:53
>>julien+(OP)
forget the app or phone

how about: a standardized test calculator specification, with careful boundaries around what is required, what is permitted and what is not.

Then let competition drive prices and features.

replies(2): >>CydeWe+bu >>intpx+fz1
8. enjoyy+Yd[view] [source] 2019-11-26 23:34:50
>>julien+(OP)
>Consider - an app that replicates this functionality on the phone

ClassCalc already does this

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9. ben-sc+Ke[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-11-26 23:42:11
>>vortic+M9
A lot of the time you can also just ask wolfram alpha (or at least once you have a formula) and you'll get the answer.
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10. saagar+Lg[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-11-27 00:03:55
>>vortic+M9
Which just speaks to the low quality of high school math questions, no an inherent flaw with providing access to technology. Try doing the same with the typical AMC problem…
replies(1): >>andrep+Bh
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11. andrep+Bh[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-11-27 00:11:21
>>saagar+Lg
No, it speaks that there are hundreds of millions of pupils worldwide learning roughly the same material. Try making a creative new question for each, every year...
replies(1): >>failra+rj
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12. failra+rj[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-11-27 00:27:32
>>andrep+Bh
Procedural generation of math problems is solved.
replies(1): >>andrep+lK1
13. asdff+tk[view] [source] 2019-11-27 00:37:43
>>julien+(OP)
On the other hand, you have a product that has been identical for the past 25 years or so, that just about every high schooler in america has at one point or another temporarily.

The used market must be absolutely massive, larger than any other piece of consumer electronics. No wonder TI can't budge from their pricing. These things also do not break. I've left mine out in a blizzard. You throw them at a wall and you will find your ti84 sitting happily embedded in a crater in the drywall.

14. briand+nm[view] [source] 2019-11-27 00:58:58
>>julien+(OP)
> but tracks if the user at any point closes the app. This then is reported to the teacher so the teacher knows if there was any cheating.

Apple Classroom does this.

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15. jacobo+Qn[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-11-27 01:19:07
>>ddek+C9
The only test I ever took which needed a TI calculator was the AP calculus exam. I borrowed one from the school, and it was a bit of a pain to figure out the UI during the test, but overall it went fine.

The calculators are a completely counter-productive and distracting tool for “learning” which have contributed to a watered down curriculum with more mindless button punching and less thinking than before. Anecdotally some students never recover from the mistaken idea that math class is about learning how calculators work.

There is no reason to assign problems which require a calculator in high school mathematics courses, and for anything that would benefit, there’s a huge advantage in using a computer with a full-sized keyboard and a general-purpose programming language, or even a smartphone with a web browser. Do your basic plotting at the free desmos.com, with the added bonus that sharing plots with classmates is trivial because you can generate a URL.

16. jsf01+Vr[view] [source] 2019-11-27 02:11:12
>>julien+(OP)
Every attempt to prevent cheating in that way is a huge pain full of edge cases and false positives, and is usually ineffective. Would be better to either embrace technology and accept that the internet is a possible source of help or go manual/mechanical, but trying to artificially limit a cell phone or laptop is doomed from the start.

t. Student who’s had to deal with lockdown browser and similar school-specific proprietary malware.

replies(1): >>chr1+tG
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17. CydeWe+bu[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-11-27 02:45:28
>>m463+ec
This doesn't really work in the classroom, because right now teachers rely on being able to teach exactly how to perform a given calculation. Have lots of different calculators with differing interfaces, some of which the teacher doesn't even know, and teaching becomes much more difficult.
replies(3): >>Quiark+hw >>bonobo+h61 >>ken+R83
18. smelen+Nu[view] [source] 2019-11-27 02:56:59
>>julien+(OP)
I could see maybe allowing an app on a locked down tablet provided by the school and wiped before the exam. Still a big hardware and IT burden. And you need to lock the student in the app, not record if they close it, because it's so easy to accidentally switch apps with a stray finger or misplaced muscle memory.

Bring your own device sounds like a mess. Someone would create an app that looks like the locked down app but isn't really, etc. Or students would sneak in a second phone.

You really don't want to give teenagers the temptation to sneak online or into their notes during exams.

replies(1): >>Kaiyou+Rm1
19. vkou+Rv[view] [source] 2019-11-27 03:14:08
>>julien+(OP)
> I love how the answer given to this problem is more funding. Such an indication of what's wrong with modern education. This entire article is exposing the TI monopoly on calculators, getting 85-90% profit margins, and our solution is to strike to get taxpayer money to keep paying for the things? We should encourage competition.

I love how the first answer that HN proposes to a social problem is 'more capitalism'.

Why not... Just not use graphing calculators in high schools? What's wrong with pencil and graph paper? Not a single one of my algebra or calculus courses ever used the TI-83 for anything that I couldn't do by hand, or with an $8 calculator.

There is zero reason for why high school test questions should ever require a smartphone, app, calculator, or any other electronic device.

replies(1): >>chr1+EH
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20. Quiark+hw[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-11-27 03:21:47
>>CydeWe+bu
Honestly that sounds like a bug to be fixed. You don't teach to drive exactly one type of car.
replies(1): >>smelen+az
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21. smelen+az[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-11-27 04:08:45
>>Quiark+hw
I mean, you sort of do! Every modern US car has a wheel to steer, a brake pedal on the left, a gas pedal on the right. Calculator UIs vary way more than that. In the US, you can drive a manual after training on automatic, but that's not true everywhere.

And in-car driving instruction happens with the teacher next to the student in a car they're familiar with. It's not like they're radioing to 30 students each in a separate car.

Also, the calculator is a tool to teach math. If someone gets distracted figuring out the calculator, they're behind. The student driver car is to teach driving.

replies(1): >>mixmas+CF
22. boombo+cB[view] [source] 2019-11-27 04:36:01
>>julien+(OP)
>I love how the answer given to this problem is more funding. Such an indication of what's wrong with modern education.

The "answer given" was just a quote from a teacher about the millions of different ways education is underfunded, and not really about the calculator issue specifically.

Yes, the calculator problem could be solved in a wide variety of methods. Kids needing their own calculators is just one example of how underfunded schools are.

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23. mixmas+CF[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-11-27 05:38:57
>>smelen+az
Sounds like the UI needs a spec as well then.
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24. chr1+tG[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-11-27 05:54:13
>>jsf01+Vr
Why is using the internet even considered as cheating? After all school is supposed to teach children to find knowledge they want for themselves, and learning to use internet for that is much more useful than learning to use obscure pieace of a technology from 80s, which is not used anywhere else.
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25. chr1+EH[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-11-27 06:12:12
>>vkou+Rv
Not using calculators is a good solution, using apps on computers or smartphones to teach children how to use the tools the scientists use is even better. It would allow to reduce the amount of boring tasks performed in math class and increase the amount of real math.

More capitalism (or better to say market) is always good answer because it helps to solve situations where people are stuck with inefficient and useless products. If children and parents could choose between schools with different programs, and teaching apps, this expensive and outdated calculator would not exist now.

replies(1): >>vkou+bK
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26. vkou+bK[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-11-27 06:51:23
>>chr1+EH
> Not using calculators is a good solution, using apps on computers or smartphones to teach children how to use the tools the scientists use is even better. It would allow to reduce the amount of boring tasks performed in math class and increase the amount of real math.

Scientists don't use apps on computers or smartphones.

Scientists use Jupyter and Matlab. For high school courses, you could even get away with something like Excel or Sheets, or LibreCalc.

> More capitalism (or better to say market) is always good answer because it helps to solve situations where people are stuck with inefficient and useless products.

The best product in this case, is no product.

> If children and parents could choose between schools with different programs, and teaching apps, this expensive and outdated calculator would not exist now.

This is the last thing on people's minds when choosing schools.

replies(1): >>chr1+8M
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27. chr1+8M[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-11-27 07:20:22
>>vkou+bK
Jupyter, Matlab, Mathematica are all apps on computers aren't they?

> The best product in this case, is no product.

Pen and paper is a product too, which eventually will be replaced by tablet and stylus eventually.

> This is the last thing on people's minds when choosing schools.

Deciding something is unimportant, is a valid choice too, and in that case market helps to not waste resources on unimportant things, and focus on important things instead.

But then it's not required for this to be a top priority for all parents, the decision of parents who are specifically interested in mathematics would be enough to create the right incentives for the market to solve the issue.

28. punner+rM[view] [source] 2019-11-27 07:24:02
>>julien+(OP)
And to prevent accidentally closing the app you tell the kids to activate “Kiosk mode” for the app, then they have to excuse if the close it. Works on both Android and iPhone.
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29. bonobo+h61[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-11-27 12:12:46
>>CydeWe+bu
Somehow other countries manage. For some reason Americans are simultaneously considered innovative and can-do minded but they are also so quick to throw up their hands "nope, can't be done"-style on so many issues that just don't exist elsewhere.
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30. Kaiyou+Rm1[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-11-27 14:47:55
>>smelen+Nu
Why not, that's what they'll do for their jos later anyway.
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31. intpx+fz1[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-11-27 16:06:05
>>m463+ec
There already are standard(s). The problem is that virtually all math curriculum is based around the TI-83/84/89.

Honestly, there is a massive instructional benefit to being on a unified platform because it allows the cognitive load of the tool to get out of the way of the cognitive load of the work.

The problem is that TI has been pretty perfidious with their pricing and influence.

I hate to be that guy, but I think the only real solution would be to set up an open source foundation and create a unified standard for graphing calculator UI (including strictly defined key mapping/behavior) that would be applicable from Algebra up through Calc II. Then the market would be flooded with cheap chinese clones that can all run this firmware and cost like $15

replies(1): >>dragon+lR2
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32. andrep+lK1[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-11-27 17:10:18
>>failra+rj
Unless you mean "changing the numbers around" there is no universe where this is remotely true.
replies(1): >>failra+BD6
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33. dragon+lR2[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-11-28 01:39:36
>>intpx+fz1
> Honestly, there is a massive instructional benefit to being on a unified platform

Which is more than offset by the social cost of it being a monopolized proprietary platform. But since we have pretty good idea of what the requirements are for the common platform, it should be quite easy and, in the long term, a significant savings for a sufficiently large education body or coalition thereof to develop and maintain an open, unencumbered standard for meeting those requirements with a reasonable-cost certification program for those circumstances where certified-compliant implementations are important.

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34. ken+R83[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-11-28 06:29:14
>>CydeWe+bu
Then standardize the interface, too. This still doesn’t sound like a difficult problem.
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35. failra+BD6[view] [source] [discussion] 2019-11-30 04:21:48
>>andrep+lK1
I don't think you are using your imagination. Madlibs-style templating is one solution. Another would be using a context free grammar. Evolutionary equation generation.
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