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Amazon has no idea how to run an app store

submitted by lkrubn+(OP) on 2016-01-10 18:27:20 | 267 points 169 comments
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3. jjaqui+z1[view] [source] 2016-01-10 18:44:05
>>lkrubn+(OP)
This is my take on it here: http://ocean-of-storms.com/tsatsatzu/explaining-amazons-indi...
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6. FigBug+R1[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-01-10 18:47:41
>>ceejay+11
The Windows store is flooded with fake and scam apps.

http://www.howtogeek.com/194993/the-windows-store-is-a-cessp...

http://forums.windowscentral.com/general-windows-phone-discu...

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18. nailer+84[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-01-10 19:15:10
>>astaza+b3
I think that's how app stores began - do you remember 'Click N Run' in 2002? http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q41/mp3tunes/cnr-linspire...
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24. LegNea+d5[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-01-10 19:27:22
>>Billin+F1
A lot. It's the largest pain point shipping on iOS. More specific details and some suggestions:

http://christian.legnitto.com/blog/2016/01/02/ways-i-would-f...

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30. SixSig+26[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-01-10 19:38:08
>>nailer+84
The NeXT Computer and the NeXTSTEP operating system was the platform used for creating the first App Store, originally demonstrated to Steve Jobs in 1993.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NeXT

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35. jc4p+K6[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-01-10 19:47:40
>>eli+k6
You're definitely right that we don't actually know what checks they're prioritizing, but it's hard for me to believe they're actually doing any quality checking when this is the #1 skill you see in the app: http://i.imgur.com/Qp4Cv6k.png
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55. jdietr+pb[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-01-10 20:44:08
>>jc4p+K6
The iOS app store was mired in fart apps in the early days. Many of them were very profitable. I think it's just a natural growing pain of any consumer-facing app store.

http://venturebeat.com/2008/12/23/iphone-fart-app-pulls-in-n...

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67. Strato+Qf[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-01-10 21:56:00
>>inflag+s5
There's a big exception to the automated checking. You can download new JavaScript code any time after your app is approved, as long as your app runs the code under the built-in WebKit. I don't think there is any automated checking of what your new code does - how could there be? It's just a violation of the terms of service if you change the app into something completely different:

> 3.3.2 An Application may not download or install executable code. Interpreted code may only be used in an Application if all scripts, code and interpreters are packaged in the Application and not downloaded. The only exception to the foregoing is scripts and code downloaded and run by Apple's built-in WebKit framework or JavascriptCore, provided that such scripts and code do not change the primary purpose of the Application by providing features or functionality that are inconsistent with the intended and advertised purpose of the Application as submitted to the App Store.

https://developer.apple.com/programs/ios/information/

http://info.meteor.com/blog/apple-hot-code-push-mobile

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84. Joshua+Qh[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-01-10 22:24:47
>>cm2187+mc
I've had a good experience with the web app [1]. It's a surprisingly well designed piece of software compared to it's competitors (e.g. Spotify or Pandora). The library could definitely use better curation though.

[1] https://www.amazon.com/gp/dmusic/cloudplayer/player

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90. switch+0j[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-01-10 22:42:03
>>dang+mg
I'm looking forward to seeing "over the top" added to https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
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95. wester+9k[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-01-10 23:00:25
>>petra+Ii
I suspect only EC2/S3 and their paired services (EBS, IAM, etc) gain enough use to qualify as "enormous" and thus receive wide attention for their failings. AWS has a lot of services:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazon_Web_Services#List_of_pr...

Putting that aside, I'm not sure "why aren't people complaining?" is a reasonable way to prove or disprove how buggy software is.

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101. woah+Ll[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-01-10 23:30:48
>>DDub+Mg
https://github.com/substack/hyperboot
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106. wglb+Xm[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-01-10 23:47:23
>>lkrubn+Sk
I am sorry to say this contributes to the feeling that the HN rule about titles is entirely arbitrary.

It isn't, really. Editorialized titles tilt the balance in an opinionated way.

Most of the time the rule seems stupidly rigid and inflexible.

For more detail, see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10877460.

Or, you can write a blog post commenting on that story, and post the blog entry to HN.

112. galact+Mp[view] [source] 2016-01-11 00:36:09
>>lkrubn+(OP)
I'm the same "Galactoise" quoted in the original story. I'm really happy to see the conversation that cropped up here, about the lack of value around trying to certify a mutable black box, and hopefully the power of HN is enough to get some action from the Alexa team.

I also wanted to pass along a blog post I threw together on the topic. http://www.derpgroup.com/blog/on-the-topic-of-certification

It's pretty long, but the tldr is as follows: We're all worked up about this idea of having to build switches into our code to meet arbitrary certification guidelines, only to turn them off the moment we are live in prod. It's worth noting, though, that Amazon pulls these sort of antics (bait-n-switches) on us regularly and without remorse, and that there's really no way we can even know it happened. This is arguably even more destructive to the quality of our products than trying to build for a set of capricious guidelines.

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120. sunnyp+Vv[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-01-11 02:21:04
>>lmm+Zg
I'm pretty sure you have to keep the checkbox unticked so that the Amazon app can install apks and even update itself. In fact Amazon's official documentation[1] for installing their app doesn't tell users to uncheck the checkbox. The way I see it, keeping the untrusted apks checkbox ticked is a massive security risk.

[1] https://www.amazon.com/underground

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123. timrpe+lx[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-01-11 02:50:28
>>meeste+2v
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jumping_the_shark
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127. rdtsc+dy[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-01-11 03:07:00
>>lmm+Zg
> What's the threat model there?

* It annoys me as a consumer.

* It reeks of incomptency ( yeah, go and disable that security check that looks like it is there to prevent malicious software to be installed on your device, yeah, yeah, that one ).

* It is a convoluted process.

* It leaves my device vulnerable. Let's not speculate (like you did apparently) but copy and paste from their own source:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/feature.html?ie=UTF8&docId=1003016...

---

Update Phone Settings

    Go to your phone Settings page
    Tap Security or Applications (varies with device)
    Check the Unknown Sources box
    Confirm with OK
Step 2 Go to Downloads

    Open Downloads on your device by going to My Files or Files
    Tap on the Amazon App file (Amazon_App.apk)
    Tap Install when prompted
Step 3 Launch Underground App

    Tap Open to launch the Amazon Underground App
    Use the Menu on the left and select Apps & Games
---

Yeah, I don't see anything about the "untick the checkbox again" part.

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128. justin+Jy[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-01-11 03:15:58
>>galact+nx
Agree, they have been at it for about 5 years, since March, 2011 according to Wikipedia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazon_Appstore

To whoever changed the title of this: I hope Amazon is paying you a lot of money (under the theory that it's somehow better to be willfully corrupt than just stupid).

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130. vennin+4A[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-01-11 03:41:33
>>meeste+2v
The HN Guidelines [1] state that submissions "should use the original title, unless it is misleading or linkbait." While I am sure the emotions of the developers affected by this are legitimate and strong, the original title borders pretty heavily on linkbait; though I appreciate there is some debate there.

HN may strive to provide intellectually superior content, but that doesn't make me any less susceptible to linkbait.

For one, I appreciate some effort to prevent the front page of HN from devolving into 30 completely unedited, but completely unhelpful titles. If I wanted that, I would just read ads.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

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141. lkrubn+kC[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-01-11 04:22:32
>>coderd+Gz
This is a strange thing to say:

"There's a reason why the article is scant on the details of the rejection"

Did you click through the link to the page where the developers were discussing the certification process on the Amazon developer forum? This is the link the article above:

https://forums.developer.amazon.com/forums/thread.jspa?messa...

This seems as detailed as you will find for a critique of an app store.

And additionally, both of those developers linked to their own blog posts where they offered still more details:

http://www.derpgroup.com/blog/on-the-topic-of-certification

http://ocean-of-storms.com/tsatsatzu/explaining-amazons-indi...

You say the final paragraph is the "icing on the cake". The final paragraph is a summary of what Joseph Jaquinta suggested in his longer post. The above linked blog post would be redundant if it simply copy-and-pasted everything that developers had written over at the Amazon developer forums. Like any blog post, it was written with the assumption that some people would click through the links to see the source material.

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149. vennin+kE[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-01-11 05:00:04
>>derefr+cD
Thank you for teaching me "superstimulus". That word pretty much captures my concerns with linkbait and the like.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supernormal_stimulus

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152. dang+2K[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-01-11 06:58:11
>>meeste+2v
The title was obvious linkbait, so we changed it in accordance with the HN guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.

We're always happy to change a title again if someone can suggest a better one: https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme....

Edit: Ok, since people feel so strongly about this, let's restore the original title minus the high-octane "absolutely". If I hadn't been in a rush earlier today I probably would have settled on that in the first place, but not every day can be a ponder these things deeply day.

Everyone should realize, though, that indignant denunciations are not in the spirit of this site and don't belong in titles here. They are a form of linkbait because, unfortunately, indignation always sells—mechanically and for reasons that have nothing to do with the intellectual curiosity that this site is supposed to be for. Upvotes due to indignation are reflexive; what we want HN to be is reflective. This isn't a matter of taste but of core values. To change that about HN would destroy it, so we're not going to.

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153. dang+kK[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-01-11 07:01:45
>>lkrubn+xu
> You don't understand what you are talking about.

Please don't address a fellow user this way.

> Basically, the rule is that the title on HN should be exactly the same as the title of the blog post.

That's mistaken. The actual rule is to use the original title unless it is misleading or linkbait: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. Had you known that, you'd have known that we were upholding the rule, not breaking it. It's standard practice, when a title breaks the HN guidelines, to replace it with neutral, representative language from the article.

Does that mean we get every edit right? Of course not, but if you're going to object, please do so on the basis of what the guidelines actually say.

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162. SixSig+0o1[view] [source] [discussion] 2016-01-11 17:25:29
>>nailer+N41
I only know really know about it from memory and even then it's from reading PC-World, not direct experience.

The Bundle was one of those great ideas for users that got kicked in the nuts by Copy Protection methods until signing and activation was bult into the OS proper.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundle_%28OS_X%29

Even on early Windows all you had to do was xcopy a directory to share it with friends. My Quake2 folder still follows me from machine to machine.

169. galact+5ud[view] [source] 2016-01-19 01:15:27
>>lkrubn+(OP)
Follow-up, this post getting love on HN seems to have helped us get their attention. We had a conference call with them where we were able to work through a lot of the issues we were facing:

http://www.derpgroup.com/blog/the-certification-saga-problem...

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