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[return to "Reid Hoffman on the relationship between employers and employees"]
1. michae+Hb[view] [source] 2015-05-22 23:35:59
>>jrs235+(OP)
Frequently employers are so casual about references they either a) don't check them, or b) only check the ones the prospective candidate gives them.

See, that's a problem. That stands out more than any of the good things that he might say. People talk and things come out and shit happens, but deliberately going behind someone's back for back-channel references is just plain unprofessional, if not unethical. This is the kind of behavior that has the rest of the country (in which ethical standards aren't seen as old-fart ideals to be "disrupted" but are actually considered important) thinking that we, in tech, are a bunch of immature psychopaths.

The back-channel reference check is an unprofessional show of power-- like waving a gun around at work-- because it takes social access to get any information out of it (people don't just offer candid opinions up to complete strangers). What's communicated by the back-channel reference check is "your colleagues are more loyal to me than to you". There's a fucking reason why people outside of tech consider it unprofessional and borderline unethical.

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2. SamRei+Af[view] [source] 2015-05-23 01:17:27
>>michae+Hb
> People talk and things come out and shit happens, but deliberately going behind someone's back for back-channel references is just plain unprofessional, if not unethical.

It's not unprofessional or unethical.

> The back-channel reference check is an unprofessional show of power-- like waving a gun around at work-- because it takes social access to get any information out of it

For it to be a show of power, such an action would have to involve "showing" something. It's actually an attempt to avoid hiring bad employees -- that's the benefit people get.

> (people don't just offer candid opinions up to complete strangers).

This merely raises the threshold of badness before they might offer negative information. If their coworker was bad enough, they would. And do.

> What's communicated by the back-channel reference check is "your colleagues are more loyal to me than to you".

The miscommunication is on your end.

(Also, your former colleagues don't owe you or some potential employer "loyalty.")

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3. fsk+Ak[view] [source] 2015-05-23 03:58:15
>>SamRei+Af
Michael O Church once lost a job due to a "back-channel reference check", so that explains why he's so hostile to them.

Also, in the USA, there are rules limiting what you can say about a former employee. By giving a negative back-channel reference, you and your employer might be susceptible to a lawsuit. However, actually suing a former employer for something like that is probably a bad idea, because (1) it'd be hard to prove it (2) it would make you even less employable when other people find out about the lawsuit.

If I ever am in a position to do hiring, I probably wouldn't do it, because I'd trust my judgement more than someone else's.

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4. michae+pE[view] [source] 2015-05-23 15:28:12
>>fsk+Ak
Michael O Church once lost a job due to a "back-channel reference check", so that explains why he's so hostile to them.

To tell the whole story... "you should see the other guy." :)

I did eventually get my revenge. Six months later when I had the money, I hired a PI to figure out who gave the bad back-channel reference (it wasn't even someone I worked under) and found out that he was sleeping with one of his subordinates. Had the news dropped at his work, to his wife, and at his kids' school on the same afternoon. God works through people.

By giving a negative back-channel reference, you and your employer might be susceptible to a lawsuit. However, actually suing a former employer for something like that is probably a bad idea, because (1) it'd be hard to prove it (2) it would make you even less employable when other people find out about the lawsuit.

A termination lawsuit makes you less employable. I don't know that the same holds over a bad reference, because pretty much anyone would sue someone who damaged their careers in such a lasting and petty way. Getting fired is something that happens to everyone and while most of us aren't fired in an illegal way or for illegal reasons, most people will be fired in an unjust way at least once in a 40-year career, so the prevailing attitude (right or wrong) is that a successful, competent person will just dust himself off and find another job. Bad reference issues are much less common and most people (the rhetorical "reasonable man") would agree that you have to do something permanent and brutal about that.

Wrongful T lawsuits are dangerous to your career because (a) every company or manager will have to fire someone, given enough time, so it's far from clear that your opponent did anything wrong (b) they bring a lot of dirty laundry (on you and the company) into the public, and if there's no dirt on you, they make something up, and (c) your odds of winning aren't good unless you can easily prove discrimination.

When you sue over a bad reference, you're suing an individual (not "an employer") and you're also suing over something that would lead pretty much anyone to lawyer up, so the air about you isn't "he got let go and sued his company" but "someone tried to fuck up his reputation and he fought back".

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5. spaceh+hD1[view] [source] 2015-05-24 17:50:51
>>michae+pE
Michael, while I usually enjoy your rants, getting revenge like this is insane, and admitting to it on a public forum attached to your real name is a whole 'nother level of crazy. No personal offense intended, but I would never ever in a million years hire or associate personally with somebody who did what you did.
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6. michae+vK1[view] [source] 2015-05-24 20:12:40
>>spaceh+hD1
All I can say is that I hope you're never in a position where you have to do "insane" things to protect your own life or career. It's an experience that I wouldn't wish on another person.
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7. spaceh+tO1[view] [source] 2015-05-24 21:16:21
>>michae+vK1
Thanks, I hope I'm never put in the position that I would have to do such things to protect my life and career, either.

Admittedly, I don't know much about what actually happened in your situation, but does hiring a PI and going after someone 6 months after the fact protect your life or career? How, exactly? You say you had money (presumably through employment) at this point. Why not just move on and forget about that episode of your life?

That's the sort of vindictiveness that would make me afraid to associate with a person.

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