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[return to "Most technical problems are people problems"]
1. woodyl+X6[view] [source] 2025-12-05 13:47:33
>>moored+(OP)
100% agree. Sadly, I have realised fewer people actually give an F than you realise; for some, it's just a paycheck. I am not sure what has happened over the decades regarding actually being proud of the work you produce.

I also think they tend to be the older ones among us who have seen what happens when it all goes wrong, and the stack comes tumbling down, and so want to make sure you don't end up in that position again. Covers all areas of IT from Cyber, DR, not just software.

When I have moved between places, I always try to ensure we have a clear set of guidelines in my initial 90-day plan, but it all comes back to the team.

It's been 50/50: some teams are desperate for any change, and others will do everything possible to destroy what you're trying to do. Or you have a leader above who has no idea and goes with the quickest/cheapest option.

The trick is to work this out VERY quickly!

However, when it does go really wrong, I assume most have followed the UK Post Office saga in the UK around the software bug(s) that sent people to prison, suicides, etc. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Post_Office_scandal

I am pretty sure there would have been a small group (or at least one) of tech people in there who knew all of this and tried to get it fixed, but were blocked at every level. No idea - but suspect.

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2. Hendri+Sb[view] [source] 2025-12-05 14:10:43
>>woodyl+X6
> I am not sure what has happened over the decades regarding actually being proud of the work you produce.

Simple:

1. People lost ownership of the things they work on. In the early 1900s, more than half of the workforce was self-employed. Today, it is 10% in the US, 13% in the EU.

What you produce is not “yours”, it’s “your employer’s”. You don’t have ownership, and very limited to no agency.

2. People lost any tangible connection to the quality and quantity of their output.

Most workers don’t get rewarded for working harder and producing more or better output. On the contrary, they are often penalized with more and/or harder work.

To quote Office Space: “That makes a man work just hard enough not to get fired.”

3. People lost their humanity. They are no longer persons. They are resources. Human resources. And they are treated like it.

They are exploited for gain and dumped when no longer needed.

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3. almost+dd[view] [source] 2025-12-05 14:18:09
>>Hendri+Sb
How many people agree with the above but "disagree" with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marx%27s_theory_of_alienation

Lololol

Edit: I'm already down one - for people that don't read wikipedia here are the 4 dimensions of alienation of a worker as listed in the wiki:

1. From a worker's product

2. From a worker's productive activity

3. From a worker's Gattungswesen (species-being)

4. From other workers

Edit2: People [in America] will moan about their jobs, their bosses, their dwindling purchasing power, their loss of autonomy, etc etc etc but then come back as champions of capital. You see it all the time - "my job sucks but entrepreneurialism is what makes America great!!!!!!!". I've never seen a more rake->face take than this (and on such an enormous scale). It's absurd. It's delusional.

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4. marcos+9i[view] [source] 2025-12-05 14:41:46
>>almost+dd
The bad idea from Marx that lead him astray into pseudo-science territory wasn't worker alienation. It was the labor theory of value (and the other stuff he created to make it looks like it works).

Worker alienation is perfectly visible on the real world. I don't think anybody disagrees it's common.

But software development is different. There has been many decades where software developers suffered very little alienation. It only changed with the universal adoption of "corporate agile".

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5. almost+7m[view] [source] 2025-12-05 14:59:30
>>marcos+9i
> But software development is different. There has been many decades where software developers suffered very little alienation. It only changed with the universal adoption of "corporate agile"

Lol are you really gonna go with "I'm a software developer, fuck all the restaurant workers, teachers, plumbers, janitors!"

This is why Marx's ideas failed in the West - toxic individualism - and flourished in the East.

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