zlacker

[return to "Police Said They Surveilled Woman Who Had an Abortion for Her 'Safety.'"]
1. Jtsumm+g8[view] [source] 2025-10-07 16:56:05
>>locopa+(OP)
> “As much as Flock tries to be good stewards of the powerful tech we sell, this shows it really is up to users to serve their communities in good faith. Selling to law-enforcement is tricky because we assume they will use our tech to do good and then just have to hope we're right.”

> The Flock source added “Even if Flock took a stance on permitted use-cases, a motivated user could simply lie about why they're performing a search. We can never 100% know how or why our tools are being used.” A second Flock source said they believe Flock should develop a better idea of what its clients are using the company’s technology for.

In other words, why bother with safeguards when they'll just lie to us anyways?

◧◩
2. scottl+6c[view] [source] 2025-10-07 17:12:39
>>Jtsumm+g8
> Even if Flock took a stance on permitted use-cases, a motivated user could simply lie about why they're performing a search. We can never 100% know how or why our tools are being used.

I think this is a legitimate problem.

But...isn't this what warrants are for? With a warrant, the police have to say why they want to perform a search to a judge, under threat of perjury. They have a powerful incentive not to lie.

So...should warrants be required for this kind of Flock data also? Couldn't Flock set a policy that these searches are performed only under warrant? Or a law be enacted saying the same? I imagine it would make Flock much less attractive to their potential customers, and searches would be performed much less often. [1] So it's not something Flock is going to do on their own. I think we'd need to create the pressure, by opposing purchases of Flock or by specifically asking our elected representatives to create such a law.

[1] If I'm being generous, because of the extra friction/work/delay. If I'm being less generous, because they have no legitimate reason a judge would approve.

◧◩◪
3. lesuor+Jg[view] [source] 2025-10-07 17:31:31
>>scottl+6c
Eh, if a cop sat at a Dunkin Donuts and wrote down every license plate they saw that wouldn't require a warrant.

Why should contracting that out to a private company require a warrant?

Flock isn't say Google which collects location data because it needs it for Google Maps to function. Flock is only here because the local government paid it to setup equipment.

It's really an issue for the local community. Do you want your local tax dollars going to support parks or tracking individuals?

◧◩◪◨
4. ruined+ai[view] [source] 2025-10-07 17:39:03
>>lesuor+Jg
if a cop followed you for private reasons in a private car while off duty, they wouldn't need a warrant. why should they need a warrant if they pay a private individual to do it? why should they need a warrant if they pay a private company to do it electronically? why should they need a warrant when they pay a private company to do it electronically while on the clock as part of their official duty? why should they ever need a warrant? they could just kill her if they wanted, nobody would do anything about it.
◧◩◪◨⬒
5. lesuor+Qk[view] [source] 2025-10-07 17:51:45
>>ruined+ai
I'm not talking private.

Think of it this way. The government pays somebody to collect data about how many bicyclists use an intersection to decided if they should add a dedicated bike light. Why would the government need to use a warrant to get that information?

That's the same situation here. Flock is placing the cameras because the government has paid them to.

◧◩◪◨⬒⬓
6. dghlsa+8s[view] [source] 2025-10-07 18:27:00
>>lesuor+Qk
The 4th amendment is complicated, and the interpretations from the last 250 years, make it more so: "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects,[a] against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

There's a few issues

1. Unreasonable is the key word here. You purposely chose an arguably reasonable thing (counting you anonymously as you pass through an intersection).

Many people think that personally logging your movements throughout the day using automated superhuman means crosses the line into unreasonable.

2. There is also a separate issue that the law allows third parties to willingly hand over/sell information about you that many people think would be subject to warrant rules. You only need a warrant when the information is being held by a party that doesn't want to hand it over willingly.

3. Intent matters in the law. The intent behind counting cyclists is very different than the intent behind setting up a system for tracking people over time, even though the mechanism may be the same.

4. There is also the issue that currently legal != morally correct.

◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔
7. lesuor+Ut[view] [source] 2025-10-07 18:36:07
>>dghlsa+8s
The 4th amendment is tangential to my claim.

Your claim is that the local governments shouldn't be allowed to collect this data period.

My claim is that the local government doesn't need a warrant to get information from a contractor whose only reason for collecting that information was to produce it as part of their contract.

[go to top]