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[return to "Google will allow only apps from verified developers to be installed on Android"]
1. arielc+542[view] [source] 2025-08-26 11:11:45
>>kotaKa+(OP)
Meaning to use your device you need to have a contractual relationship with a foreign (unless you are in the US) third party that decides what you can or cannot do with it. Plus using GrapheneOS is less of an option every day, since banks and other "regulated" sectors use Google Play Protect and similar DRMs to prevent you from connecting from whatever device you want. Client-side "trust" means the provider owning the device, not the user.

Android shouldn't be considered Open Source anymore, since source code is published in batches and only part of the system is open, with more and more apps going behind the Google ecosystem itself.

Maybe it's time for a third large phone OS, whether it comes from China getting fed up with the US and Google's shenanigans (Huawei has HarmonyOS but it's not open) or some "GNU/Linux" touch version that has a serious ecosystem. Especially when more and more apps and services are "mobile-first" or "mobile-only" like banking.

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2. pimter+V42[view] [source] 2025-08-26 11:20:21
>>arielc+542
I think Play Integrity is the fundamental issue here, and needs to go. That's the crux of the issue.

Allowing apps to say "we only run on Google's officially certified unmodified Android devices" and tightly restricting which devices are certified is the part that makes changes like this deeply problematic. Without that, non-Google Android versions are on a fair playing field; if you don't like their rules, you can install Graphene or other alternatives with no downside. With Play Integrity & attestation though you're always living with the risk of being cut off from some essential app (like your bank) that suddenly becomes "Google-Android-Only".

If Play Integrity went away, I'd be much more OK with Google adding restrictions like this - opt in if you like, use alternatives if you don't, and let's see what the market actually wants.

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3. avhcep+X52[view] [source] 2025-08-26 11:30:25
>>pimter+V42
Banks seem to actually "want" Play Integrity. At least they act like it. I bet they would like for normal online banking on user-controlled devices to completely go away.
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4. ulrikr+go2[view] [source] 2025-08-26 13:24:43
>>avhcep+X52
What's absurd though is that they have never demanded it for browsers. I think there is a much higher risk of someone being tricked into downloading a compromised browser with a backdoor than someone being tricked into downloading a modified version of their particular banking app. It gives the attacker the same level of control though.
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5. mike_h+Mo2[view] [source] 2025-08-26 13:27:07
>>ulrikr+go2
Banks have never accepted browsers. They don't need to because they can require the web app be paired with a mobile app or SMS code to log in. Before they used mobile apps they issued smartcard readers (at least they did everywhere I lived). The smartcard readers were also used to digitally sign transactions.

In other words, there aren't many banks that let you take sensitive actions with just a browser and that's been true since the start of online banking.

These days they also apply differential risk analysis based on the device used to submit a transaction and do things to push people towards mobile. For instance in Switzerland there's now a whole standard for encoding invoices in QR codes. To pay those you must use the mobile apps.

Edit: people are getting hung up on the "never accepted browsers" part. It means they only use the browser for unimportant interactions. For important stuff like login or tx auth, they expect the use of separate hardware that's more controlled like a SIM card/mobile radio, smartcard or smartphone app. Yes some banks are more lax than others but in large parts of the world this was always true since the start of online banking.

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6. ulrikr+pq2[view] [source] 2025-08-26 13:35:40
>>mike_h+Mo2
Thats ... false. Every bank I have used in Denmark allows me to log in and do all operations without an app. They require authentication and authorization using the national digital identity (MitID) which comes as an app, but also as a TOTP token and a FIDO (or similar) chip. No apps needed.

I guess the smartcard reader is equivalent. But my point is that locking down the OS of the phone is sufficient to establish client trust but not necessary. You should always be allowed to run the app without strong Play Integrity verification but then just be required to scan your hardware token with NFC in every authentication and authorization flow.

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7. mike_h+Xq2[view] [source] 2025-08-26 13:38:22
>>ulrikr+pq2
That's exactly what I'm saying. They don't let you take actions using only a web browser. If you don't use a mobile app they issue you with trusted hardware that performs a similar function (although usually less secure and not as convenient).

My bank does still allow login and txns to be authorized with a smart card reader. You have to type in fragments of the account number to authorize a new recipient. After that you can send additional transactions to that account without hardware auth.

Pure NFC tokens don't work because you need trusted IO.

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8. ulrikr+0t2[view] [source] 2025-08-26 13:47:22
>>mike_h+Xq2
Alright, I think I misunderstood you. I know most banks allow alternatives other than the app.

But just the fact that there are options which have the side effect of making you choose between convenience and digital autonomy is wrong, and I don't think remote attestation should even exist in the toolbox. We should make dedicated hardware solutions work better instead.

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9. mike_h+dG2[view] [source] 2025-08-26 14:48:53
>>ulrikr+0t2
Dedicated hardware solutions are remote attestation. The smartcard OTC readers are doing exactly that: you sign a challenge with a private key that never leaves the smartcard and is paired to the bank at the factory. This is what remote attestation is doing behind the scenes, the only difference is the smartcard user interaction is much more limited. It's of no use for protecting your financial privacy, for example, only for stopping a hacked display device authorizing transactions.

If you evolve the smartcard based systems with better I/O capabilities, then you end up with a modern smartphone. At which point you may as well let the user supply their own rather than charging them lots of money for a dedicated device that's not much different.

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10. ulrikr+nN2[view] [source] 2025-08-26 15:16:30
>>mike_h+dG2
No, I reject the idea that general purpose computing devices should be locked down to satisfy a very narrow security use case. I really don't believe that you end up with a smartphone, and I don't think you give a very good argument for why.

I am fine with locking down devices that have very limited security purposes. I am fine with my passport containing locked down hardware if it makes it harder to forge. But I am also not browsing the web on my passport, and therefore its security requirements cannot prevent me from removing ads.

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11. mike_h+8Z2[view] [source] 2025-08-26 16:09:46
>>ulrikr+nN2
OK, use a browser that lets you remove ads then! Android isn't iOS, you can run browsers that aren't Chrome and nothing about this change would stop you installing a custom browser with whatever features you want. Your banking app doesn't care what browser you use.
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12. ulrikr+y53[view] [source] 2025-08-26 16:34:46
>>mike_h+8Z2
You are fundamentally misunderstanding my point about freedom.

Yes, I can do it now, but this is only because Google allows me to do that on their approved Android distribution, not because they are unable to prevent me from doing it. I don't trust them to not take away that freedom from me as soon as they can be sure that they can afford the anti-trust lawsuit since their core business model is to show me ads.

I know that my bank doesn't care about my browser, but by relying on Play Integrity they are indirectly forcing me to operate in Google's control regime in every other aspect on my device.

I don't want them to control my software stack, period. I don't care if they act as the good guys right now, they have been steadily doing downhill in the moral department and I expect them to continue to do so.

I don't understand how you can act like there is no problem at all with technology like this.

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