zlacker

>>ustad+(OP)
I've been using Go more or less in every full-time job I've had since pre-1.0. It's simple for people on the team to pick up the basics, it generally chugs along (I'm rarely worried about updating to latest version of Go), it has most useful things built in, it compiles fast. Concurrency is tricky but if you spend some time with it, it's nice to express data flow in Go. The type system is most of the time very convenient, if sometimes a bit verbose. Just all-around a trusty tool in the belt.

But I can't help but agree with a lot of points in this article. Go was designed by some old-school folks that maybe stuck a bit too hard to their principles, losing sight of the practical conveniences. That said, it's a _feeling_ I have, and maybe Go would be much worse if it had solved all these quirks. To be fair, I see more leniency in fixing quirks in the last few years, like at some point I didn't think we'd ever see generics, or custom iterators, etc.

The points about RAM and portability seem mostly like personal grievances though. If it was better, that would be nice, of course. But the GC in Go is very unlikely to cause issues in most programs even at very large scale, and it's not that hard to debug. And Go runs on most platforms anyone could ever wish to ship their software on.

But yeah the whole error / nil situation still bothers me. I find myself wishing for Result[Ok, Err] and Optional[T] quite often.

>>blixt+ac
Go was designed by some old-school folks that maybe stuck a bit too hard to their principles, losing sight of the practical conveniences.

I'd say that it's entirely the other way around: they stuck to the practical convenience of solving the problem that they had in front of them, quickly, instead of analyzing the problem from the first principles, and solving the problem correctly (or using a solution that was Not Invented Here).

Go's filesystem API is the perfect example. You need to open files? Great, we'll create

  func Open(name string) (*File, error)

function, you can open files now, done. What if the file name is not valid UTF-8, though? Who cares, hasn't happen to me in the first 5 years I used Go.

>>xyzzyz+6f
While the general question about string encoding is fine, unfortunately in a general-purpose and cross-platform language, a file interface that enforces Unicode correctness is actively broken, in that there are files out in the world it will be unable to interact with. If your language is enforcing that, and it doesn't have a fallback to a bag of bytes, it is broken, you just haven't encountered it. Go is correct on this specific API. I'm not celebrating that fact here, nor do I expect the Go designers are either, but it's still correct.

>>jerf+4s
This is one of those things that kind of bugs me about, say, OsStr / OsString in Rust. In theory, it’s a very nice, principled approach to strings (must be UTF-8) and filenames (arbitrary bytes, almost, on Linux & Mac). In practice, the ergonomics around OsStr are horrible. They are missing most of the API that normal strings have… it seems like manipulating them is an afterthought, and it was assumed that people would treat them as opaque (which is wrong).

Go’s more chaotic approach to allow strings to have non-Unicode contents is IMO more ergonomic. You validate that strings are UTF-8 at the place where you care that they are UTF-8. (So I’m agreeing.)

>>klodol+nG
> You validate that strings are UTF-8 at the place where you care that they are UTF-8.

The problem with this, as with any lack of static typing, is that you now have to validate at _every_ place that cares, or to carefully track whether a value has already been validated, instead of validating once and letting the compiler check that it happened.

>>Kinran+GU
In practice, the validation generally happens when you convert to JSON or use an HTML template or something like that, so it’s not so many places.

Validation is nice but Rust’s principled approach leaves me high and dry sometimes. Maybe Rust will finish figuring out the OsString interface and at that point we can say Rust has “won” the conversation, but it’s not there yet, and it’s been years.

>>klodol+rY
> validation generally happens when

Except when it doesn’t and then you have to deal with fucking Cthulhu because everyone thought they could just make incorrect assumptions that aren’t actually enforced anywhere because “oh that never happens”.

That isn’t engineering. It’s programming by coincidence.

> Maybe Rust will finish figuring out the OsString interface

The entire reason OsString is painful to use is because those problems exist and are real. Golang drops them on the floor and forces you pick up the mess on the random day when an unlucky end user loses data. Rust forces you to confront them, as unfortunate as they are. It's painful once, and then the problem is solved for the indefinite future.

Rust also provides OsStrExt if you don’t care about portability, which greatly removes many of these issues.

I don’t know how that’s not ideal: mistakes are hard, but you can opt into better ergonomics if you don’t need the portability. If you end up needing portability later, the compiler will tell you that you can’t use the shortcuts you opted into.

>>stouse+111
Can you give an example of how Go's approach causes people to lose data? This was alluded to in the blog post but they didn't explain anything.

It seems like there's some confusion in the GGGGGP post, since Go works correctly even if the filename is not valid UTF-8 .. maybe that's why they haven't noticed any issues.