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[return to "Anthropic cut up millions of used books, and downloaded 7M pirated ones – judge"]
1. dehrma+DS[view] [source] 2025-07-07 16:02:04
>>pyman+(OP)
The important parts:

> Alsup ruled that Anthropic's use of copyrighted books to train its AI models was "exceedingly transformative" and qualified as fair use

> "All Anthropic did was replace the print copies it had purchased for its central library with more convenient space-saving and searchable digital copies for its central library — without adding new copies, creating new works, or redistributing existing copies"

It was always somewhat obvious that pirating a library would be copyright infringement. The interesting findings here are that scanning and digitizing a library for internal use is OK, and using it to train models is fair use.

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2. 6gvONx+hW[view] [source] 2025-07-07 16:25:05
>>dehrma+DS
You skipped quotes about the other important side:

> But Alsup drew a firm line when it came to piracy.

> "Anthropic had no entitlement to use pirated copies for its central library," Alsup wrote. "Creating a permanent, general-purpose library was not itself a fair use excusing Anthropic's piracy."

That is, he ruled that

- buying, physically cutting up, physically digitizing books, and using them for training is fair use

- pirating the books for their digital library is not fair use.

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3. pier25+Fm1[view] [source] 2025-07-07 19:00:39
>>6gvONx+hW
> buying, physically cutting up, physically digitizing books, and using them for training is fair use

So Suno would only really need to buy the physical albums and rip them to be able to generate music at an industrial scale?

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4. conrad+0G1[view] [source] 2025-07-07 21:20:16
>>pier25+Fm1
Yes! Training and generation are fair use. You are free to train and generate whatever you want in your basement for whatever purpose you see fit. Build a music collection, go ham.

If the output from said model uses the voice of another person, for example, we already have a legal framework in place for determining if it is infringing on their rights, independent of AI.

Courts have heard cases of individual artists copying melodies, because melodies themselves are copyrightable: https://www.hypebot.com/hypebot/2020/02/every-possible-melod...

Copyright law is a lot more nuanced than anyone seems to have the attention span for.

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5. pier25+HG1[view] [source] 2025-07-07 21:25:52
>>conrad+0G1
> Yes!

But Suno is definitely not training models in their basement for fun.

They are a private company selling music, using music made by humans to train their models, to replace human musicians and artists.

We'll see what the courts say but that doesn't sound like fair use.

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6. conrad+RP1[view] [source] 2025-07-07 22:51:28
>>pier25+HG1
My understanding is that Suno does not sell music, but instead makes a tool for musicians to generate music and sells access to this tool.

The law doesn't distinguish between basement and cloud – it's a service. You can sell access to the service without selling songs to consumers.

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7. pier25+aT1[view] [source] 2025-07-07 23:27:04
>>conrad+RP1
That's like arguing that a restaurant doesn't sell food because it sells the service of cooking it.
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8. conrad+EZ1[view] [source] 2025-07-08 00:57:53
>>pier25+aT1
The restaurant is not responsible for E. coli if it’s found, are they? Just cooking it out of the food

Suno can’t prevent humans from copying other humans, it can only make sure that the direct output of its system isn’t infringing.

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9. Greed+6T2[view] [source] 2025-07-08 12:45:10
>>conrad+EZ1
You may be reaching the limits of the metaphor here, but restaurants are absolutely responsible for the e coli if it's found in significant quantities whether it's in the initial ingredients or the cooked end product. A restaurant is required to vet its suppliers and ensure food safety protocols throughout the entire process with several independent checks at many points, and is ultimately directly responsible if a customer sues. A restaurant does not get to cook bad ingredients well and then point at the supplier. They will find themselves shut down immediately, andpermanently if they do not resolve the situation.

In this context, this would be the equivalent of Suno explicitly placing stop points throughout the training, tokenization, and generation processes to verify that there was absolutely no chance of it generating copyrighted material through some kind of clean room reconstruction test. They would also need those tests to be audited at random by a third party governing body. Obviously they are not doing this, so the metaphor definitely does not track here.

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10. conrad+C13[view] [source] 2025-07-08 13:50:07
>>Greed+6T2
The problem here is there is no “test” that is known to work here other than checking for direct infringement, which they have a responsibility to do (as they don’t have a license to the originals).

Anything remotely beyond that and we have teams of humans adjudicating specific cases: https://library.mi.edu/musiccopyright/currentcases

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