zlacker

[return to "IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites"]
1. alluro+Gk[view] [source] 2025-06-28 12:24:26
>>ahmetc+(OP)
I visited Israel for a sports seminar some ~10 years ago and met many nice people. I felt sympathetic to their reality of living in an ever-hostile environment from all sides, and struggle to keep their place in the world safe. I admired their resilience and strength.

When this Gaza conflict started, I saw how the Israeli protested against their government and demanded peace, so I thought there is a semblance of an excuse for glimpses of abhorrence being reported - "it's a small number of people in power, not the Israeli nation doing it, and also there are always 2 sides to the story".

Since then, there have been unfathomable horrors and crimes against humanity done from the Israel side, with extreme intensity and one-sidedness, and it's now been going for so long. I can find no excuse of any kind anymore, for what has been and is being done in Gaza. I don't think any normal person could. The weight of these things, in my mind at least, is such that if the Israeli people really wanted anything different, it was their human duty and utmost responsibility to stop this by now, in whatever way needed. They didn't... It's sad that people who have suffered so much as well, let themselves become the villains to this depth and extent.

◧◩
2. xg15+Fm[view] [source] 2025-06-28 12:42:37
>>alluro+Gk
I'm German and I really see a lot of the blame for this on our states as well - the US and the EU states (especially Germany, sadly).

As horrible as the Israeli mindset is, their subjective viewpoint is at least somewhat relatable: An ordinary Israeli citizen is born in that land, knows nothing else, just learns that the entirety of the surrounding populations want them dead - and will with very high likelihood experience terror attacks themselves. That this upbringing doesn't exactly make you want to engage with the other side is psychologically understandable.

(I'm imaging this as the universal experience of all Jewish Israelis, religious or secular, left or right. I'm excluding the religious and Zionist-ideological angles here, because those are a whole different matter once again)

What I absolutely cannot understand is the behavior of our states. We're pretending to be neutral mediators who want nothing more than to end the conflict, yet in reality, we're doing everything to keep the conflict going. We're fully subscribed to Zionist narrative of an exclusive Israeli right to the land (the justifications ranging from ostensibly antifascist to openly religious) and we're even throwing our own values about universal human rights and national sovereignty under the bus to follow the narrative.

If the messianic and dehumanizing tendencies of Israelis are answered by nothing else than full support and encouragement of their allies, I don't find it exactly surprising that they will grow.

◧◩◪
3. lottin+No[view] [source] 2025-06-28 13:03:36
>>xg15+Fm
What does it even mean 'to want nothing more than to end the conflict'? As far as I can tell it doesn't mean anything. Everybody wants the conflict to end, including the Israelis and the Palestinians. They just want it to end differently, of course.
◧◩◪◨
4. xg15+Ep[view] [source] 2025-06-28 13:14:12
>>lottin+No
In theory, we want to end it through the Two-State Solution (though even what this means is vague - certainty not the borders of 1967 that Palestinians and Arabs are demanding)

But yeah, in practice, we seem to want it to end with full Israeli dominance, and the Palestinians either emigrating to Egypt and Jordan or vanishing into thin air, I suppose.

◧◩◪◨⬒
5. mjevan+Ox[view] [source] 2025-06-28 14:33:37
>>xg15+Ep
I'd like better news coverage of that:

What exactly ARE the goals / demands of every side. Both what they say in public, and what's generally accepted as the rational real goals each side requests / demands / etc via peace talks as well as through violence.

The breakdown could even focus on factions within the nebulous term of 'sides'. An average citizen is likely to have looser criteria than a government / terrorist.

◧◩◪◨⬒⬓
6. ethbr1+My[view] [source] 2025-06-28 14:45:09
>>mjevan+Ox
The problem with enunciating real positions to domestic audiences are that the extremists on both sides will literally murder anyone who compromises.

Let's not forget Israel's domestic orthodox/right-wing Jewish terrorism and Yitzhak Rabin's assassination.

Ergo, there's even more incentive for leaders to continually espouse positions they know will never happen, but which play well at home.

As a violence in poli sci professor of mine once quipped, this is a 'the only solution is killing the grandmothers' conflict. Because generational narratives of victimization are so ingrained in large parts of both societies that there is no room for compromise.

Silence extremist voices forcefully, wait a generation, and then there might be a path to peace. :(

◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔
7. dh2022+IM[view] [source] 2025-06-28 16:25:48
>>ethbr1+My
Who will provide the force to silence these extremist voices?

Maybe there are some parallels in this situation and late 1800’s-mid 1900’s Western Europe. The civil war on the European continent between Germanic states on one hand and French/British ended when two powerful outsiders (US and Soviet Russia) invaded and split the continent. During this occupation west Europeans nations learned how to live with themselves and to atone for their mistakes and to not repeat these mistakes. But they only learned this because they were under military occupation.

This scenario will most likely not happen in the Middle East and so I think there will not be peace there for generations.

◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔⧯
8. ethbr1+7T[view] [source] 2025-06-28 17:08:13
>>dh2022+IM
The greatest chance for this was probably the US-Arab world, but the Shia/Sunni sectarian-political feudalism made that a non-starter, especially in the context of the Cold War.

As a colleague from Bahrain once quipped, 'the countries of the Arab world love to use Palestinians as propaganda for domestic purposes, but none of them actually give enough of a shit to make hard choices to solve the problem.'

[go to top]