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[return to "My AI skeptic friends are all nuts"]
1. matthe+y41[view] [source] 2025-06-03 06:58:13
>>tablet+(OP)
I think this article is pretty spot on — it articulates something I’ve come to appreciate about LLM-assisted coding over the past few months.

I started out very sceptical. When Claude Code landed, I got completely seduced — borderline addicted, slot machine-style — by what initially felt like a superpower. Then I actually read the code. It was shockingly bad. I swung back hard to my earlier scepticism, probably even more entrenched than before.

Then something shifted. I started experimenting. I stopped giving it orders and began using it more like a virtual rubber duck. That made a huge difference.

It’s still absolute rubbish if you just let it run wild, which is why I think “vibe coding” is basically just “vibe debt” — because it just doesn’t do what most (possibly uninformed) people think it does.

But if you treat it as a collaborator — more like an idiot savant with a massive brain but no instinct or nous — or better yet, as a mech suit [0] that needs firm control — then something interesting happens.

I’m now at a point where working with Claude Code is not just productive, it actually produces pretty good code, with the right guidance. I’ve got tests, lots of them. I’ve also developed a way of getting Claude to document intent as we go, which helps me, any future human reader, and, crucially, the model itself when revisiting old code.

What fascinates me is how negative these comments are — how many people seem closed off to the possibility that this could be a net positive for software engineers rather than some kind of doomsday.

Did Photoshop kill graphic artists? Did film kill theatre? Not really. Things changed, sure. Was it “better”? There’s no counterfactual, so who knows? But change was inevitable.

What’s clear is this tech is here now, and complaining about it feels a bit like mourning the loss of punch cards when terminals showed up.

[0]: https://matthewsinclair.com/blog/0178-why-llm-powered-progra...

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2. wpietr+KO1[view] [source] 2025-06-03 13:42:38
>>matthe+y41
One of the things I think is going on here is a sort of stone soup effect. [1]

Core to Ptacek's point is that everything has changed in the last 6 months. As you and I presume he agree, the use of off-the-shelf LLMs in code was kinda garbage. And I expect the skepticism he's knocking here ("stochastic parrots") was in fact accurate then.

But it did get a lot of people (and money) to rush in and start trying to make something useful. Like the stone soup story, a lot of other technology has been added to the pot, and now we're moving in the direction of something solid, a proper meal. But given the excitement and investment, it'll be at least a few years before things stabilize. Only at that point can we be sure about how much the stone really added to the soup.

Another counterfactual that we'll never know is what kinds of tooling we would have gotten if people had dumped a few billion dollars into code tool improvement without LLMs, but with, say, a lot of more conventional ML tooling. Would the tools we get be much better? Much worse? About the same but different in strengths and weaknesses? Impossible to say.

So I'm still skeptical of the hype. After all, the hype is basically the same as 6 months ago, even though now the boosters can admit the products of 6 months ago sucked. But I can believe we're in the middle of a revolution of developer tooling. Even so, I'm content to wait. We don't know the long term effects on a code base. We don't know what these tools will look like in 6 months. I'm happy to check in again then, where I fully expect to be again told: "If you were trying and failing to use an LLM for code 6 months ago †, you’re not doing what most serious LLM-assisted coders are doing." At least until then, I'm renewing my membership in the Boring Technology Club: https://boringtechnology.club/

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_Soup

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3. DannyB+FZ2[view] [source] 2025-06-03 20:50:03
>>wpietr+KO1
"nother counterfactual that we'll never know is what kinds of tooling we would have gotten if people had dumped a few billion dollars into code tool improvement without LLMs, but with, say, a lot of more conventional ML tooling. Would the tools we get be much better? Much worse? About the same but different in strengths and weaknesses? Impossible to say."

You'll not only never know this, it's IMHO not very useful to think about at all, except as an intellectual exercise.

I wish i could impress this upon more people.

A friend similarly used to lament/complain that Kotlin sucked in part because we could have probably accomplished it's major features in Java, and maybe without tons of work, or migration cost.

This is maybe even true!

as an intellectual exercise, both are interesting to think about. But outside of that, people get caught up in this as if it matters, but it doesn't.

Basically nothing is driven by pure technical merit alone, not just in CS, but in any field. So my point to him was the lesson to take away from this is not "we could have been more effective or done it cheaper or whatever" but "my definition of effectiveness doesn't match how reality decides effectiveness, so i should adjust my definition".

As much as people want the definition to be a meritocracy, it just isn't and honestly, seems unlikely to ever be.

So while it's 100% true that billions of dollars dumped into other tools or approaches or whatever may have have generated good, better, maybe even amazing results, they weren't, and more importantly, never would have been. Unknown but maybe infinite ROI is often much more likely to see investment than more known but maybe only 2x ROI.

and like i said, this is not just true in CS, but in lots of fields.

That is arguably quite bad, but also seems unlikely to change.

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4. wpietr+Xo6[view] [source] 2025-06-05 02:10:03
>>DannyB+FZ2
> You'll not only never know this, it's IMHO not very useful to think about at all, except as an intellectual exercise.

I think it's very useful if one wants to properly weigh the value of LLMs in a way that gets beyond the hype. Which I do.

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5. DannyB+do7[view] [source] 2025-06-05 13:23:30
>>wpietr+Xo6
Sure, and that works in the abstract (ie "what investment would theoretically have made the most sense") but if you are trying to compare in the real world you have to be careful because it assumes the alternative would have ever happened. I doubt it would have.
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