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[return to "My AI skeptic friends are all nuts"]
1. matthe+y41[view] [source] 2025-06-03 06:58:13
>>tablet+(OP)
I think this article is pretty spot on — it articulates something I’ve come to appreciate about LLM-assisted coding over the past few months.

I started out very sceptical. When Claude Code landed, I got completely seduced — borderline addicted, slot machine-style — by what initially felt like a superpower. Then I actually read the code. It was shockingly bad. I swung back hard to my earlier scepticism, probably even more entrenched than before.

Then something shifted. I started experimenting. I stopped giving it orders and began using it more like a virtual rubber duck. That made a huge difference.

It’s still absolute rubbish if you just let it run wild, which is why I think “vibe coding” is basically just “vibe debt” — because it just doesn’t do what most (possibly uninformed) people think it does.

But if you treat it as a collaborator — more like an idiot savant with a massive brain but no instinct or nous — or better yet, as a mech suit [0] that needs firm control — then something interesting happens.

I’m now at a point where working with Claude Code is not just productive, it actually produces pretty good code, with the right guidance. I’ve got tests, lots of them. I’ve also developed a way of getting Claude to document intent as we go, which helps me, any future human reader, and, crucially, the model itself when revisiting old code.

What fascinates me is how negative these comments are — how many people seem closed off to the possibility that this could be a net positive for software engineers rather than some kind of doomsday.

Did Photoshop kill graphic artists? Did film kill theatre? Not really. Things changed, sure. Was it “better”? There’s no counterfactual, so who knows? But change was inevitable.

What’s clear is this tech is here now, and complaining about it feels a bit like mourning the loss of punch cards when terminals showed up.

[0]: https://matthewsinclair.com/blog/0178-why-llm-powered-progra...

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2. throw3+G51[view] [source] 2025-06-03 07:12:08
>>matthe+y41
> Did Photoshop kill graphic artists?

No, but AI did.

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3. tptace+m61[view] [source] 2025-06-03 07:19:54
>>throw3+G51
This, as the article makes clear, is a concern I am alert and receptive to. Ban production of anything visual from an LLM; I'll vote for it. Just make sure they can still generate Mermaid charts and Graphviz diagrams, so they still apply to developers.
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4. hatefu+W61[view] [source] 2025-06-03 07:25:44
>>tptace+m61
What is unique about graphic design that warrants such extraordinary care? Should we just ban technology that approaches "replacement" territory? What about the people, real or imagined, that earn a living making Graphviz diagrams?
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5. tptace+b71[view] [source] 2025-06-03 07:27:00
>>hatefu+W61
The article discusses this.
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6. hatefu+G71[view] [source] 2025-06-03 07:32:45
>>tptace+b71
Does it? It admits at the top that art is special for no given reason, then it claims that programmers don't care about copyright and they deserve what's coming to them, or something..

"Artificial intelligence is profoundly — and probably unfairly — threatening to visual artists"

This feels asserted without any real evidence

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7. tptace+581[view] [source] 2025-06-03 07:35:52
>>hatefu+G71
LLMs immediately and completely displace the bread-and-butter replacement-tier illustration and design work that makes up much of that profession, and does so by effectively counterfeiting creative expression. An coding agent writes a SQL join or a tree traversal. The two things are not the same.

Far more importantly, though, artists haven't spent the last quarter century working to eliminate protections for IPR. Software developers have.

Finally, though I'm not stuck on this: I simply don't agree with the case being made for LLMs violating IPR.

I have had the pleasure, many times over the last 16 years, of expressing my discomfort with nerd piracy culture and the coercive might-makes-right arguments underpinning it. I know how the argument goes over here (like a lead balloon). You can agree with me or disagree. But I've earned my bona fides here. The search bar will avail.

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8. hatefu+591[view] [source] 2025-06-03 07:43:59
>>tptace+581
> LLMs immediately and completely displace the bread-and-butter replacement-tier illustration and design work that makes up much of that profession

And so what? Tell it to the Graphviz diagram creators, entry level Javascript programmers, horse carriage drivers, etc. What's special?

> .. and does so by effectively counterfeiting creative expression

What does this actually mean, though? ChatGPT isn't claiming to have "creative expression" in this sense. Everybody knows that it's generating an image using mathematics executed on a GPU. It's creating images. Like an LLM creates text. It creates artwork in the same sense that it creates novels.

> Far more importantly, though, artists haven't spent the last quarter century working to eliminate protections for IPR. Software developers have.

Programmers are very particular about licenses in opposition to your theory. Copyleft licensing leans heavily on enforcing copyright. Besides, I hear artists complain about the duration of copyright frequently. Pointing to some subset of programmers that are against IPR is just nutpicking in any case.

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9. tptace+v91[view] [source] 2025-06-03 07:49:25
>>hatefu+591
Oh, for sure. Programmers are very particular about licenses. For code.
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10. hatefu+xb1[view] [source] 2025-06-03 08:09:51
>>tptace+v91
I get it, you have an axe to grind against some subset of programmers who are "nerds" in a "piracy culture". Artists don't deserve special protections. It sucks for your family members, I really mean that, but they will have to adapt with everybody else.
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11. tptace+xG2[view] [source] 2025-06-03 18:57:59
>>hatefu+xb1
I do have an axe to grind, and that part of the post is axe-grindy (though: it sincerely informs how I think about LLMs), I knew that going into it (unanimous feedback from reviewers!) and I own it.
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12. marcus+el3[view] [source] 2025-06-03 23:39:05
>>tptace+xG2
I generally agree with your post. Many of the arguments against LLMs being thrown around are unserious, unsound, and a made-for-social-media circle jerk that don't survive any serious adversarial scrutiny.

That said, this particular argument you are advancing isn't getting so much heat here because of an unfriendly audience that just doesn't want to hear what you have to say. Or that is defensive because of hypocrisy and past copyright transgressions. It is being torn apart because this argument that artists deserve protection, but software engineers don't is unsound special pleading of the kind you criticize in your post.

Firstly, the idea that programmers are uniquely hypocritical about IPR is hyperbole unsupported by any evidence you've offered. It is little more than a vibe. As I recall, when Photoshop was sold with a perpetual license, it was widely pirated. By artists.

Secondly, the idea -- that you dance around but don't state outright -- that programmers should be singled out for punishment since "we" put others out of work is absurd and naive. "We" didn't do that. It isn't the capital owners over at Travelocity that are going to pay the price for LLM displacement of software engineers, it is the junior engineer making $140k/year with a mortgage.

Thirdly, if you don't buy into LLM usage as violating IPR, then what exactly is your argument against LLM use for the arts? Just a policy edict that thou shalt not use LLMs to create images because it puts some working artists out of business? Is there a threshold of job destruction that has to occur for you to think we should ban LLMs use case by use case? Are there any other outlaws/scarlet-letter-bearers in addition to programmers that will never receive any policy protection in this area because of real or perceived past transgressions?

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13. tptace+Jn3[view] [source] 2025-06-04 00:06:48
>>marcus+el3
Adobe is one of the most successful corporations in the history of commerce; the piracy technologists enabled wrecked most media industries.

Again, the argument I'm making regarding artists is that LLMs are counterfeiting human art. I don't accept the premise that structurally identical solutions in software counterfeit their originals.

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14. marcus+F76[view] [source] 2025-06-04 23:15:13
>>tptace+Jn3
> Adobe is one of the most successful corporations in the history of commerce; the piracy technologists enabled wrecked most media industries.

I guess that makes it ok then for artists to pirate Adobe's product. Also, I live in a music industry hub -- Nashville -- you'll have to forgive me if I don't take RIAA at their word that the music industry is in shambles, what with my lying eyes and all.

> Again, the argument I'm making regarding artists is that LLMs are counterfeiting human art. I don't accept the premise that structurally identical solutions in software counterfeit their originals.

I'm aware of the argument you are making. I imagine most of the people here understand the argument you are making. Its just a really asinine argument and is propped up by all manner of special pleading (but art is different, programmers are all naughty pirates that deserve to be punished) and appeals to authority (check my post history - I've established my bona fides.)

There simply is no serious argument to be made that LLMs reproducing one work product and displacing labor is better or worse than an LLM reproducing a different work product and displacing labor. Nobody is going to display some ad graphic from the local botanical garden's flyer for their spring gala at The Met. That's what is getting displaced by LLM. Banksy isn't being put out of business by stable diffusion. The person making the ad for the botanical garden's flyer has market value because they know how to draw things that people like to see in ads. A programmer has value because they know how to write software that a business is willing to pay for. It is as elitist as it is incoherent to say that one person's work product deserves to be protected but another person's does not because of "creativity."

Your argument holds no more water and deserves to be taken no more seriously than some knucklehead on Mastodon or Bluesky harping about how LLMs are going to cause global warming to triple and that no output LLMs produce has any value.

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15. tptace+tP6[view] [source] 2025-06-05 07:39:46
>>marcus+F76
Well, I disagree with you. For the nth time, though, I also don't grant the premise that LLMs are violative of the IPR of programmers. But more importantly than anything else, I just don't want to hear any of this from developers. That's not "your arguments are wrong and I have refuted them". It's "I'm not going to hear them from you".
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