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1. ChuckM+H5[view] [source] 2025-04-08 19:57:10
>>todsac+(OP)
I had the funny thought that this is exactly what a sentient AI would write "stop looking here, there is nothing to see, move along." :-)

I (like vannevar apparently) didn't feel Cyc was going anywhere useful, there were ideas there, but not coherent enough to form a credible basis for even a hypothesis of how a system could be constructed that would embody them.

I was pretty impressed by McCarthy's blocks world demo, later he and a student formalized some of the rules for creating 'context'[1] for AI to operate within, I continue to think that will be crucial to solving some of the mess that LLMs create.

For example, the early failures of LLMs suggesting that you could make salad crunchy by adding rocks was a classic context failure, data from the context of 'humor' and data from the context of 'recipes' intertwined. Because existing models have no context during training, there is nothing in the model that 'tunes' the output based on context. And you get rocks in your salad.

[1] https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/document?repid=rep1&type=pdf&d...

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2. musica+iS[view] [source] 2025-04-09 04:21:32
>>ChuckM+H5
> there remains no evidence of its general intelligence

This seems like a high bar to reach.

We all know that symbolic AI didn't scale as well as LLMs trained on huge amounts of data. However, as you note, it also tried to address many things that LLMs still don't do well.

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3. ChuckM+yZ[view] [source] 2025-04-09 05:58:23
>>musica+iS
This is exactly correct, LLMs did scale with huge data, symbolic AI did not. So why? One of the things I periodically ask people working on LLMs is "what does a 'parameter' represent? The simplistic answer is 'it's a weight in a neural net node' but that doesn't much closer. Consider something like a bloom filter where a '0' bit represents the nth bit of all hashes of strings this filter has not seen. I would be interested in reading a paper that does a good job of explaining what a parameter ends up representing in an LLM model.[1]

I suspect that McCarthy was on to something with the context thing. Organic intelligence certainly fails in creative ways without context it would not be disqualifying to have AI fail in similarly spectacular ways.

[1] I made a bit of progress on this considering it to be the permeability for progress such that the higher the weight the easier it was to 'pass thorough' this particular neuron but the cyclic nature of the graph makes a purely topological explanation pretty obtuse :-).

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4. YeGobl+Hl1[view] [source] 2025-04-09 10:34:51
>>ChuckM+yZ
>> This is exactly correct, LLMs did scale with huge data, symbolic AI did not. So why?

Like the rock salad you're mixing up two disparate contexts here. Symbolic AI like SAT solvers and planners is not trying to learn from data and there's no context in which it has to "scale with huge data".

Instead, what modern SAT solvers and planners do is even harder than "scaling with data" - which, after all, today means having imba hardware and using it well. SAT solving and planning can't do that: SAT is NP-complete and planning is PSPACE-complete so it really doesn't matter how much you "scale" your hardware, those are not problems you can solve by scaling, ever.

And yet, today both SAT and planning are solved problems. NP complete? Nowadays, that's a piece of cake. There are dedicated solvers for all the classical sub-categories of SAT and modern planners can solve planning problems that require sequences of thousands of actions. Hell, modern planners can even play Atari games from pixels alone, and do very well indeed [1].

So how did symbolic AI manage those feats? Not with bigger computers but precisely with the approach that the article above seems to think has failed to produce any results: heuristic search. In SAT solving, the dominant approach is an algorithm called "Conflict Driven Clause Learning", that is designed to exploit the special structure of SAT problems. In Planning and Scheduling, heuristic search was always used, but work really took off in the '90s when people realised that they could automatically estimate a heuristic cost function from the structure of a planning problem.

There are parallel and similar approaches everywhere you look at, in classical AI problems, like verification, theorem proving, etc, and that work has even produced a few Turing awards [2]. But do you hear about that work at all, when you hear about AI research? No, because it works, and so it's not AI.

But it works, it runs on normal hardware, it doesn't need "scale" and it doesn't need data. You're measuring the wrong thing with the wrong stick.

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[1] Planning with Pixels in (Almost) Real Time: https://arxiv.org/pdf/1801.03354 Competitive results with humans and RL. Bet you didn't know that.

[2] E.g. Pnueli for temporal logic in verification, or Clarke, Emerson and Sifakis, for model checking.

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5. HarHar+9Y1[view] [source] 2025-04-09 15:11:29
>>YeGobl+Hl1
I think the problem with trying to hand-create symbolic rules for AI is that things like natural language, and the real world, are messy. Even with fuzzy rules you are never going to be able to accurately capture all the context dependencies and nuances, which may anyways be dynamic. Learning from real world data is the only realistic approach, although I don't think language models are the answer either - you need a system that is continually learning and correcting it's own errors.

CYC was an interesting experiment though. Even though it might have been expected to be brittle due to the inevitable knowledge gaps/etc, it seems there was something more fundamentally wrong with the approach for it not to have been more capable. An LLM could also be regarded as an expert system of sorts (learning its own rules from the training data), but some critical differences are perhaps that the LLM's rules are as much about recognizing context for when to apply a rule as what the rule itself is doing, and the rules are generative rather than declarative - directly driving behavior rather than just deductive closure.

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6. YeGobl+Ki4[view] [source] 2025-04-10 08:47:04
>>HarHar+9Y1
Yeas, hand-coding rules doesn't work in the long run. But burning through the world's resources to approximate a huge dataset isn't a viable long-term solution for anything either.
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