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1. mschwa+VV[view] [source] 2025-01-04 10:34:59
>>pabs3+(OP)
I really wish we would take defining what it means for an artifact to be signed more seriously.

Which key(s) is it signed with? What is the hash of the corresponding unsigned artifact?

Signature verification tools should have some option which prints these things in a machine-readable format.

I did some work on reproducibility of Android apps and system images with Nix, and while defining a build step which can automatically establish these relationships sounds a bit goofy, it can make the issues with underspecified edge cases visible by defining verification more strictly. I did not do this to look for those edge cases though.

I am still working on that type of stuff now, but on more fundamental issues of trust we could start addressing with systems like Nix.

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2. 1oooqo+a11[view] [source] 2025-01-04 12:02:07
>>mschwa+VV
blame browsers and the url padlock "cuz users are dumb" attitude.

i still believe "pgp is too complex" was the most successful cia counter action after they lost the crypto wars to the people.

solving via nix only works within the flawed assumptions that end users either fully trust google or fdroid and are incapable of anything else.

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3. rollca+Ob1[view] [source] 2025-01-04 14:35:00
>>1oooqo+a11
> "pgp is too complex"

PGP is too complex. I've known my way around the command line before I learned how to hand-write, and I have to look up the commands to fetch the keys and/or verify the blob every single time. Keyservers regularly fail to respond. There's no desktop integration to speak of. The entire UX stinks of XKCD 196.

Don't blame CIA for obvious deficiencies in usability.

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4. graeme+on1[view] [source] 2025-01-04 16:16:41
>>rollca+Ob1
For what purpose? Setting up PGP signing and encryption for emails in Thunderbird is dead simple. if only I knew anyone else willing to use it!

I think you are right that UI sucks in many cases, but I think its not intrinsic to PGP - its fixable.

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5. rollca+4q5[view] [source] 2025-01-06 15:06:49
>>graeme+on1
I agree, but not with the "fixable" part.

Encrypted email is near useless. The metadata (subject, participants, etc) is unencrypted, and often as important as the content itself. There are no ephemeral keys, because the protocol doesn't support it (it's crudely bolted on top of SMTP and optionally MIME). Key exchange is manual and a nuisance few will bother with, and only the most dedicated will rotate their keys regularly. It leaves key custody/management to the user: if there was anything good about the cryptocurrency bubble, it's that it proved that this is NOT something you can trust an average person with.

Signed email is also hard to use securely: unless the sender bothered to re-include all relevant metadata in the message body, someone else can just copy-paste the message content and use it out of context (as long as they can fake the sender header). It's also trivial to mount an invisible salamanders attack (the server needs to cooperate).

The golden standard of E2EE UX are Signal, iMessage, and WhatsApp; all the details of signing and encryption are invisible. Anything less is insecure - because if security is optional or difficult, people will gravitate towards the easy path.

The only use-case I have for PGP is verifying the integrity of downloads, but with ubiquitous HTTPS it's just easier to run sha256sum and trust the hash that was published on the website. The chain of trust is more complicated and centralised (involves CAs and browser vendors), but the UX is simpler, and therefore it does a better job.

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