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[return to "Kenya and "the decline of the greatest coffee" (2021)"]
1. noodle+G5[view] [source] 2024-12-02 14:38:51
>>sebg+(OP)
I wonder what the long term solutions to these kinds of problems are in East Africa and similar contexts.

The remnants of colonialism continue to produce winners and losers economically, with the winners stuck in local maxima where they extract value from the people, but the people themselves see only marginal benefit, and development is stuck at a snail's pace.

As with seemingly everything in life, the incentives for the different players really don't line up. Consumers lose, producers lose, and only a select few middlemen win anything at all.

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2. fsckbo+T7[view] [source] 2024-12-02 14:55:09
>>noodle+G5
"the remnants of colonialism" include the ability to participate in world markets which create markets for local products. If Kenyans grew coffee (ignoring the fact that Kenyans growing coffee was itself a remnant of colonialism) just for the Kenyan market, the coffee sector in Kenya would be a tiny part of the local economy.

The reason New York City is the biggest city in the US is because when the Erie Canal was built, the agricultural riches of the Midwest had a route to world markets. Where you have a major seaport, you also need major banks and major insurance companies to smooth out the financial needs of traders and shippers, providing the funds right away back to the farmers, instead of them waiting till the voyages were complete. (without the Erie Canal, New Orleans would have become the largest city in the US)

Yes, there is a lot of money in trading, banking, etc. At every step of the transaction pyramid, a %age is added to the price, and the %age fees charged on that go up accordingly. But that measures the true value of the product at each stage; if you have a cheaper way of getting the same product to the same stage cheaper, the (supposed) riches will be yours.

The socialist instinct ("anybody getting rich must be cheating") unfortunately obscures the real problem ("monopolists and cartels controlling supply and setting prices are the true enemies of the people") which hinders solving it; by putting capitalism in your gunsights, you make enemies out of natural allies.

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3. buster+T8[view] [source] 2024-12-02 15:01:08
>>fsckbo+T7
It's painful having to remind people of this.

Also the fact that everyone alive today is so as a result of either being on the winning side of colonialism or from their ancestors otherwise clubbing somebody else over the head.

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4. Pittle+xa[view] [source] 2024-12-02 15:10:00
>>buster+T8
> Also the fact that everyone alive today is so as a result of either being on the winning side of colonialism or from their ancestors otherwise clubbing somebody else over the head.

That's a poor justification for it, though, and I don't want to live in a society that goes out of its way to view itself as Hobbesian.

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5. TeMPOr+bo[view] [source] 2024-12-02 16:35:02
>>Pittle+xa
You have to work with the world as it is, not as you'd wish it to work (especially that it likely couldn't possibly work that way anyway). "State of nature" sucks, because nature sucks. All the nice and good things come from building systems, social or otherwise, on top of the natural state of things - systems that work with our natural inclinations, instead of pretending they don't exist.
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6. Pittle+kD1[view] [source] 2024-12-03 02:32:44
>>TeMPOr+bo
Right but nature doesn't suck. You make humans sound incapable of cooperation when this evidently isn't true. In this world uncooperative behavior is mostly a choice. Particularly in the west.
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7. TeMPOr+vl2[view] [source] 2024-12-03 12:09:58
>>Pittle+kD1
To the extent humans fail at cooperation, that's nature at work. When we cooperate, we defy nature.
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