zlacker

[return to "The pro-Israel information war"]
1. Scubab+2n[view] [source] 2023-12-08 20:46:21
>>anigbr+(OP)
I have no skin in this game.

What I have seen is a confusion (perhaps intentional) between anti-semitism, and protesting Israel’s behavior since the Hamas attack in October.

Criticizing Israel’s response is not anti-Semitism- it is literally just criticizing the response.

◧◩
2. ARandu+2t[view] [source] 2023-12-08 21:12:22
>>Scubab+2n
Israel and pro-Israel commentators have spent a lot of time and effort trying to ingrain the idea that Israel == Jews. Of course, not all Jews are Israeli, and not all Israelis are Jews. And there are many Jewish Israelis who are critical of the actions of the Israeli government.

Of course, a lot of criticism of Israel is rooted in antisemitism. But saying all criticism of Israel is antisemitic deflects legitimate criticism, and makes it harder to identify legitimate antisemitism.

◧◩◪
3. matrix+Cu[view] [source] 2023-12-08 21:19:23
>>ARandu+2t
> But saying all criticism of Israel is antisemitic deflects legitimate criticism

Who is saying this? All I've heard are people on one side insisting that people are saying this, sounds like a straw man

◧◩◪◨
4. 49531+ny[view] [source] 2023-12-08 21:35:54
>>matrix+Cu
The US House of Representatives passed a measure on Tuesday which "clearly and firmly states that anti-Zionism is antisemitism"[1]; so at least 311 congress members are saying it.

1. https://www.congress.gov/118/bills/hres894/BILLS-118hres894i...

◧◩◪◨⬒
5. samatm+2J[view] [source] 2023-12-08 22:24:40
>>49531+ny
anti-Zionism is the proposition that Israel must be destroyed. Zionism is the movement to ensure that the Jewish homeland in the form of the state of Israel be created and sustained, anti-Zionism is its antithesis.

This is not the same as being critical of that state, being anti-Israel isn't antisemitic (except when it is, obviously), but nor is it anti-Zionism. Saying Netanyahu should be dragged before the Hague, that the international community should demand an immediate ceasefire or force a two-state solution, that Israel must uphold the right of return: none of these are anti-Zionism, nor antisemitic.

If your position is not that Israel must be destroyed, good, don't call yourself anti-Zionist though. If it is, then yes, that's antisemitic, or the word is meaningless.

Similarly, find another slogan besides "From the river to the sea", because that is, in fact, a call to ethnically cleanse all Jews from Israel. It has meant that since the establishment of Israel, and you don't get to wander in and say it means something different at this point. If you don't mean that, don't say it. Find literally any other way to express yourself.

◧◩◪◨⬒⬓
6. roflye+8L[view] [source] 2023-12-08 22:36:19
>>samatm+2J
I always was under the impression that Anti-Zionism was just being against Zionism.
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔
7. dlubar+QD1[view] [source] 2023-12-09 05:44:37
>>roflye+8L
There were basically two prongs to Zionism, (1) encouraging the return of Jews to their homeland, and (2) supporting the creation a Jewish state. Now that Israel exists, (2) has morphed into something like "supporting Israel's continued existence and connection to Judaism".

I think being anti-Zionist means being against both prongs, meaning that there should no longer be a Jewish state. Given the practical implications of that, it seems hard to justify without antisemitism.

Wikipedia has a whole section [1] on "View that [anti-Zionism and antisemitism] are not interlinked", but those supporting that view seem to be using an overly-broad definition of anti-Zionism.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Zionism#View_that_the_two...

◧◩◪◨⬒⬓⬔⧯
8. skissa+J12[view] [source] 2023-12-09 10:10:35
>>dlubar+QD1
> I think being anti-Zionist means being against both prongs, meaning that there should no longer be a Jewish state. Given the practical implications of that, it seems hard to justify without antisemitism.

Amnon Raz-Krakotzkin is professor of Jewish History at Ben-Gurion University. He criticises Zionism, and promotes binationalism as an alternative–the idea of a single state shared equally by two nations (Arab and Jewish)–also known variously as the "one state solution" or "Israeltine" or "Isratin". [0] Obviously if he had his way, there would no longer be a Jewish state–if by that one means an exclusively Jewish state. But, I find it hard to take seriously the idea that a Jewish Israeli academic is antisemitic – his views may well be impractical and overly idealistic, but where is the evidence he's an antisemite? And I think this is just one example of the several different forms of contemporary non-antisemitic opposition to Zionism.

[0] https://www.forum-transregionale-studien.de/kommunikation/de...

[go to top]