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1. Scubab+2n[view] [source] 2023-12-08 20:46:21
>>anigbr+(OP)
I have no skin in this game.

What I have seen is a confusion (perhaps intentional) between anti-semitism, and protesting Israel’s behavior since the Hamas attack in October.

Criticizing Israel’s response is not anti-Semitism- it is literally just criticizing the response.

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2. ARandu+2t[view] [source] 2023-12-08 21:12:22
>>Scubab+2n
Israel and pro-Israel commentators have spent a lot of time and effort trying to ingrain the idea that Israel == Jews. Of course, not all Jews are Israeli, and not all Israelis are Jews. And there are many Jewish Israelis who are critical of the actions of the Israeli government.

Of course, a lot of criticism of Israel is rooted in antisemitism. But saying all criticism of Israel is antisemitic deflects legitimate criticism, and makes it harder to identify legitimate antisemitism.

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3. matrix+Cu[view] [source] 2023-12-08 21:19:23
>>ARandu+2t
> But saying all criticism of Israel is antisemitic deflects legitimate criticism

Who is saying this? All I've heard are people on one side insisting that people are saying this, sounds like a straw man

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4. 49531+ny[view] [source] 2023-12-08 21:35:54
>>matrix+Cu
The US House of Representatives passed a measure on Tuesday which "clearly and firmly states that anti-Zionism is antisemitism"[1]; so at least 311 congress members are saying it.

1. https://www.congress.gov/118/bills/hres894/BILLS-118hres894i...

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5. samatm+2J[view] [source] 2023-12-08 22:24:40
>>49531+ny
anti-Zionism is the proposition that Israel must be destroyed. Zionism is the movement to ensure that the Jewish homeland in the form of the state of Israel be created and sustained, anti-Zionism is its antithesis.

This is not the same as being critical of that state, being anti-Israel isn't antisemitic (except when it is, obviously), but nor is it anti-Zionism. Saying Netanyahu should be dragged before the Hague, that the international community should demand an immediate ceasefire or force a two-state solution, that Israel must uphold the right of return: none of these are anti-Zionism, nor antisemitic.

If your position is not that Israel must be destroyed, good, don't call yourself anti-Zionist though. If it is, then yes, that's antisemitic, or the word is meaningless.

Similarly, find another slogan besides "From the river to the sea", because that is, in fact, a call to ethnically cleanse all Jews from Israel. It has meant that since the establishment of Israel, and you don't get to wander in and say it means something different at this point. If you don't mean that, don't say it. Find literally any other way to express yourself.

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6. the_ga+jM[view] [source] 2023-12-08 22:42:49
>>samatm+2J
From Wikipedia [1], the definition of anti-Zionism is:

> [The belief that] the modern State of Israel, and the movement to create a sovereign Jewish state in the region of Palestine—the biblical Land of Israel—was flawed or unjust in some way

This is very different from "Israel must be destroyed".

Similarly, your interpretation of "From the river to the sea" is extreme. It's only really been a scrutinized slogan since Hamas started using it in 2017. Its previous ~60 years of use were consistently about creating a secular, multi-ethnic, democratic state for all the people inside its borders.

There has never been an official Palestinian position calling for the removal of Jews.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Zionism

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7. dlubar+wO1[view] [source] 2023-12-09 07:46:05
>>the_ga+jM
What you quoted is extremely broad, and I don't think it was meant as the definition of anti-Zionism. Since it was prefaced with "all its proponents agree that", it seems like a sort of lower bound on the various definitions.

If we did take that to be the definition of anti-Zionism, then it seems one could be both a Zionist and an anti-Zionist, if they supported the existence of a Jewish state but didn't approve of the particular way Israel was established.

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8. skissa+302[view] [source] 2023-12-09 09:56:44
>>dlubar+wO1
> If we did take that to be the definition of anti-Zionism, then it seems one could be both a Zionist and an anti-Zionist, if they supported the existence of a Jewish state but didn't approve of the particular way Israel was established.

Anti-Zionism was the mainstream Orthodox Jewish position prior to the Holocaust; and contemporary mainstream Haredi anti-Zionism essentially continues that historical position largely unchanged. According to that viewpoint, it is a sin to establish a Jewish-ruled state in Eretz Yisrael prior to the coming of the Messiah. So, classical Jewish anti-Zionism supports the existence of a Jewish state (in the future messianic age) but doesn’t approve of the particular way Israel was established (by mostly secular Zionists in 1948 instead of by a divinely appointed Messiah at some point in the future). Still, it clearly is an anti-Zionist position not a Zionist one.

The majority of contemporary Haredim are neither anti-Zionist (the mainstream being Satmar, Edah HaCharedeis, Central Rabbinical Congress, and then there are extremists such as Neturei Karta) nor explicitly Zionist (as in the Hardal), rather non-Zionist. Haredi non-Zionists agree with the anti-Zionists that the 1948 creation of the State of Israel was a sin, but now it exists, they say (contrary to the anti-Zionists) that it is okay to cooperate with it by voting in its elections, running candidates in the Knesset, accepting its handouts, etc. Sometimes the boundary between non-Zionism and soft Zionism is rather murky - my impression is that is particularly true of contemporary Chabad, whose non-Zionism has grown closer to Zionism over time

I think there is an important (but often ignored) distinction here between theory and practice - whatever one thinks of the rights or wrongs of Zionism as an ideology in the abstract, doesn’t necessarily decide one’s practical attitude towards the State of Israel - e.g. a person (whether Jewish or non-Jewish, whether in Israel/Palestine or on the opposite side of the planet) can theoretically oppose Zionism as an erroneous ideology, yet simultaneously decide to support the State of Israel on pragmatic grounds-and there is no necessary logical inconsistency in that

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