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[return to "The pro-Israel information war"]
1. jdross+15[view] [source] 2023-12-08 19:20:04
>>anigbr+(OP)
Pro-Palestinian views outrank Pro-Israeli online by around 36 to 1 on TikTok and 8 to 1 on other online platforms. https://twitter.com/antgoldbloom/status/1721561226151612602

If anything the skew within the platforms is to prioritize pro-palestinian views https://twitter.com/committeeonccp/status/173279243496103143...

It also seems like these platforms create (rather than support) anti-Israeli views: https://twitter.com/antgoldbloom/status/1730255552738201854

US views skew pro-israel, and GenZ is closer to 50/50, so if there's something going on online, it's not in favor of Israel.

It's probably relevant that there are 1 billion Muslims to 16 million Jews, and that the largest relevant population of pro-Israeli internationals is India and Indian Hindus, and they are not on TikTok (blocked in India).

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2. A1kmm+gP[view] [source] 2023-12-08 22:57:29
>>jdross+15
I think the fundamental assumption of the analysis that there are two mutually exclusive groups, 'pro-Israel' and 'pro-Palestine' is flawed. It is possible to simultaneously support the interests of Palestinian and Israeli civilians (and support a peaceful Israel within the 1967 boundaries), while condemning the massacre of civilians under the orders of Likud (and other far right parties) and Hamas.

I think it is currently about an order of magnitude more civilians deaths have resulted from the actions of Likud (Netanyahu etc..., who control the government and hence the IDF) than from the actions of Hamas. IDF is apparently disrupting civilian aid, destroying infrastructure including hospitals, and causing mass population movements into areas that cannot support them, so the risk of death from starvation and infectious disease at a massive scale as an indirect result is high. The Likud-controlled IDF are also apparently enforcing a 'lock down' of Palestinian civilians in the West Bank while allowing Israeli citizens to seize land by force and further expand the occupied territories.

So the scale of the atrocities seems to be much higher on the Likud side than the Hamas side, covers both the West Bank and Gaza, and it makes sense that the Palestinian victims of those atrocities would receive more support. That doesn't mean that all the people who care about the plight of the Palestinian population are anti-Israel (they are just not posting about it because they are likely prioritising issues).

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3. meowfa+mS[view] [source] 2023-12-08 23:13:49
>>A1kmm+gP
I don't support how civilians are being treated in Palestine whatsoever, but:

>while condemning the massacre of civilians under the orders of Likud (and other far right parties)

When has Likud ordered massacres of civilians? Or when has any modern Israeli party? I also don't believe Likud is considered far-right in Israel; just "right". There are parties far to the right of them. Not that that's necessarily a good thing, but it's a relative designation.

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4. jakela+JW[view] [source] 2023-12-08 23:34:22
>>meowfa+mS
Here is a long list of Israeli politicians and military officers who have declared their intent to massacre civilians:

- Israeli Prime Minister (!!) Benjamin Netanyahu: "You must remember what Amalek has done to you, says our Holy Bible. And we do remember." [1]

- IDF spokesman Daniel Hagari: "we're focused on what causes maximum damage" [2]

- Israeli defense Minister Yoav Gallant: "I have ordered a complete siege on Gaza: no electricity, no food, no fuel, no water. Everything is closed. We are fighting human animals and we will act accordingly." [3]

- Israeli Minister of National Security Itamar Ben-Gvir: “As long as Hamas does not release the hostages in its hands - the only thing that needs to enter Gaza are hundreds of tons of explosives from the air force, not an ounce of humanitarian aid” [4]

- IDF Reservist Major General Giora Eiland: “The State of Israel has no choice but to turn Gaza into a place that is temporarily or permanently impossible to live in" and "Creating a severe humanitarian crisis in Gaza is a necessary means to achieve the goal." [5]

- Israeli President Isaac Herzog: "It is not true this rhetoric about civilians not being aware, not involved. It’s absolutely not true." and "Of course there are many, many innocent Palestinians who don’t agree to this — but unfortunately in their homes, there are missiles shooting at us, at my children." [6]

- IDF Reservist Ezra Yachin: "Be triumphant and finish them off and don’t leave anyone behind. Erase the memory of them. Erase them, their families, mothers and children. These animals can no longer live." and "Every Jew with a weapon should go out and kill them. If you have an Arab neighbour, don’t wait, go to his home and shoot him." [7]

- IDF Reservist Major General Giora Eiland: "The international community is warning us against a severe humanitarian disaster and severe epidemics. We must not shy away from this. After all, severe epidemics in the south of Gaza will bring victory closer" and "there’s no reason why the Hamas generals in southern Gaza wouldn’t surrender when they have no fuel, no water, and when plagues will reach them and the danger to the lives of their family members will increase" [8]

- Israeli Defense Minister Yoav Gallant: "Hezbollah is close to making a grave mistake. The ones who will pay the price are first of all the citizens of Lebanon. What we do in Gaza we know how to do in Beirut" [9]

- Israeli Minister for Agriculture and former head of Shin Bet Avi Dichter: "We are now actually rolling out the Gaza Nakba" [10]

- Likud Knesset member Galit Distel-Atbaryan: "Invest this energy in one thing; Erasing all of Gaza from the face of the earth." and "A vengeful and cruel IDF is needed here. Anything less is immoral." [11]

- Israeli Energy Minister Israel Katz: "Humanitarian aid to Gaza? No electrical switch will be turned on, no water pump will be opened and no fuel truck will enter until the Israeli abductees are returned home" [12]

- IDF Lt. Col. Richard Hecht, in response to Wolf Blitzer asking if the IDF knew there were civilians in Jabalya refugee camp before they bombed it: "This is the tragedy of war, Wolf — as you know, we've been saying for days, move south." [13]

[1] https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2023/11/benjamin-netany...

[2] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/10/right-now-it-i...

[3] https://twitter.com/marwasf/status/1711392643908071789

[4] https://x.com/davidrkadler/status/1714362716565979534

[5] https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/15/opinion/israel-united-sta...

[6] https://www.huffpost.com/entry/israel-gaza-isaac-herzog_n_65...

[7] https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/israel-palestine-war-vete...

[8] https://twitter.com/hahauenstein/status/1726326606782984506

[9] https://twitter.com/alihashem_tv/status/1723369208191287738

[10] https://twitter.com/hahauenstein/status/1723441134221869453

[11] https://twitter.com/GalitDistel/status/1719689095230730656

[12] https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/energy-minister...

[13] https://twitter.com/justinbaragona/status/171941227835150748...

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5. YZF+e01[view] [source] 2023-12-08 23:50:10
>>jakela+JW
Hagari was not speaking about massacring civilians. He was talking about damage to Hamas/military targets. He did say that Israel is biased towards more damage vs. accuracy.

This is very propaganda. I've been following the conflict pretty closely and I speak Hebrew. The parent is correct, there is and was no order to massacre civilians.

It's probably safe to say that protecting Palestinian civilians is not Israel's main priority, but there's a big difference between that and painting a picture of Israel trying to massacre as many civilians as possible.

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6. jakela+s11[view] [source] 2023-12-08 23:58:40
>>YZF+e01
Is that meant to be exculpatory? If you say that you're attacking military targets that are (allegedly) embedded within civilian infrastructure and that you're focused on damage rather than accuracy, you are telling me that you intend to massacre civilians.
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7. YZF+951[view] [source] 2023-12-09 00:26:24
>>jakela+s11
I think there's a difference in emphasis and intent. We're painting pictures here. So one picture we're painting is "kill as many civilians a possible with no other military objective" and the other picture we're painting is "go after military targets even at some cost to civilians (and the question of that cost)". The reality is that in every way, every military in the world, executes the second picture. The variable being what is a reasonable threshold for the given military objective. The accusations against Israel intentionally try to place it in the first picture.

If the critics were clear about their issue being how Israel measures proportionality with respect to every single target they go after, and they were able to support their case comparing to other similar military campaigns, and there was a very clear outcome of that comparison, I think that's very fair and I'd even be able to get behind it. But that's not what the critics are doing.

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8. bluish+w61[view] [source] 2023-12-09 00:36:22
>>YZF+951
Things are much clearer, you are just cherry picking what to respond and defend. Then you build your case against isreal critics. One example of things you ignored replying to the GP comment is this. This is a plain war crime

> Israeli defense Minister Yoav Gallant: "I have ordered a complete siege on Gaza: no electricity, no food, no fuel, no water. Everything is closed. We are fighting human animals and we will act accordingly."

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9. YZF+z81[view] [source] 2023-12-09 00:51:46
>>bluish+w61
This was said at the heat of the moment when the bodies of the Oct 7th victims were still warm and the entire country was stunned and lost.

This complete siege didn't happen.

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10. jakela+8b1[view] [source] 2023-12-09 01:11:43
>>YZF+z81
Uhhhh yes it did: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Israeli_blockade_of_the_G...

> On 9 October 2023, Israel imposed a "total blockade" of the Gaza Strip, blocking the entry of food, water, medicine, fuel and electricity.

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11. YZF+kg1[view] [source] 2023-12-09 01:51:33
>>jakela+8b1
But Israel does allow food and water to enter Gaza. Some fuel. And yes, it stopped providing a portion of Gaza's electricity.

I think this (new) Wikipedia article is somewhat iffy. And maybe I'm misusing terminology. I think Israel's actions in this context constitute a blockade that is legal in times of war. I don't want to nitpick siege vs. blockage etc. or the fact that Israel doesn't control all the borders. Israel's actions here are legal.

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12. bluish+ri1[view] [source] 2023-12-09 02:06:39
>>YZF+kg1
> But Israel does allow food and water to enter Gaza

You mean by not bombing rafah crossing in violation of international law as they did several times already?

> I think Israel's actions in this context constitute a blockade that is legal in times of war

> Israel's actions here are legal.

At least provide any sources during your quest to defend isreal actions. Even if it is straightout lies like that one [1]

Hint : the story is about Israeli military releases footage of a secret terrorist ‘roster’ that turns out to be a calendar (that was very obvious for any one with basic arabic knowledge) and that was their justification for bombing and taking out a children hospital bt force.

[1] https://www.dailydot.com/debug/israel-gaza-hospital-calendar...

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13. YZF+2p1[view] [source] 2023-12-09 02:59:31
>>bluish+ri1
I know about this incident.

This was not a calendar. The first day was Oct 7th. It had the operation's name as the title "Al Aqsa Flood". https://twitter.com/IDF/status/1724245759174791626

It's true that Hagari incorrectly said it was a "roster". But it's not a calendar. It was a mistake, not a lie. He shouldn't have done that.

https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/comments/17zu5x8/di...

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