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1. abeppu+1V[view] [source] 2022-07-15 00:33:56
>>themgt+(OP)
I'm not saying there _aren't_ problems with decision-making or guidance from our public health agencies, but this article uses really different standards for judging positions taken by those agencies than it does for any dissenting position, in a way that ends up being nonsensical.

Sure, let's critically evaluate the guidance put forward by our public health institutions, but quoting a statement from Norway's equivalent institution without the backing evidence doesn't make the US "wrong". If the evidence available on the efficacy of vaccines for kids is so ridiculously wide that it goes from -99% to +370% risk of infection, then surely Norway is _also_ drastically overstating its case when it says (about kids) "previous infection offers as good of protection as the vaccine against reinfection" esp since it _also_ seems like the protective effect of prior infection is both uncertain and changing.

How about flatly declaring that guidance was "wrong" about school closures because minority and poor kids did markedly worse at math? Obviously these decisions are complex trade-offs, and one can't conclude that the choice was "wrong" simply by pointing out one of the costs.

How about quoting a CDC scientist, who cannot possibly have strong evidence when making the prediction "CDC guidance worsened racial equity for generations to come. It failed this generation of children." Generations to come? Show us the data that lets this scientist predict the far future with such confidence.

I get that it's deeply unnerving when these institutions make sweeping recommendations based on less firm data than we would normally demand. But not recommending anything, or not taking decisive action because of the limited data would _also_ have been irresponsible. When schools first closed, we didn't know a lot of things, but it would have been pretty reckless if agencies said "well this is putting a lot of people in the hospital and spreading fast, but we don't have the data to give definitive guidance yet, so you're on your own. Depending on the range of things your communities choose, maybe in a few months we'll have the evidence to say something."

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2. timr+Gf1[view] [source] 2022-07-15 03:44:52
>>abeppu+1V
> If the evidence available on the efficacy of vaccines for kids is so ridiculously wide that it goes from -99% to +370% risk of infection, then surely Norway is _also_ drastically overstating its case when it says (about kids) "previous infection offers as good of protection as the vaccine against reinfection" esp since it _also_ seems like the protective effect of prior infection is both uncertain and changing.

The protective effect of prior infection is not uncertain, nor is it changing. There have been dozens of papers now, all saying the same thing: natural infection is at least as protective (if not more so) than even 3 doses of the current vaccines. If you are hearing otherwise, you are being misinformed. Full stop.

Here's the latest paper in a long line of consistent evidence, last week in the NEJM:

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2203965

> No discernable differences in protection against symptomatic BA.1 and BA.2 infection were seen with previous infection, vaccination, and hybrid immunity. Vaccination enhanced protection among persons who had had a previous infection. Hybrid immunity resulting from previous infection and recent booster vaccination conferred the strongest protection.

Norway is saying what it is, because we know that most people -- vaccinated or previously infected -- will eventually get re-infected. But even if you are re-infected, you will be well-protected against severe illness.

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3. stonog+ck1[view] [source] 2022-07-15 04:40:53
>>timr+Gf1
> natural infection is at least as protective (if not more so) than even 3 doses of the current vaccines.

This claim is directly contradicted in the paper you linked:

> The effectiveness of previous infection alone against symptomatic BA.2 infection was 46.1% (95% confidence interval [CI], 39.5 to 51.9).

...

> The effectiveness of three doses of BNT162b2 and no previous infection was 52.2% (95% CI, 48.1 to 55.9).

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4. timr+fo1[view] [source] 2022-07-15 05:34:17
>>stonog+ck1
Those confidence intervals overlap. You're cherry picking one plot, for one outcome, for one vaccine, out of the entire paper, and it's not refuting the conclusion of the paper.
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5. ImPost+Su1[view] [source] 2022-07-15 06:44:10
>>timr+fo1
if they overlap, how do you support your statement that the opposite is true?
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6. timr+uv1[view] [source] 2022-07-15 06:49:33
>>ImPost+Su1
"natural infection is at least as protective (if not more so) than even 3 doses of the current vaccines."

GP is citing a part of the paper where they show...that natural infection is statistically indistinguishable from 3 doses. QED.

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