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[return to "Pluton is not currently a threat to software freedom"]
1. dane-p+F3[view] [source] 2022-01-09 02:33:34
>>foodst+(OP)
> Remote attestation has been possible since TPMs started shipping over two decades ago.

The difference now is that Microsoft are saying they will only support machines which have these TPMs, and therefore they can credibly argue in a few years that the only secure PCs (and thus the only PCs that ISPs should allow online) are ones which can produce a remote attestation to prove they are running the latest OS updates (from an OS vendor that is approved by the government).

> If Microsoft wanted to prevent users from being able to run arbitrary applications, they could just ship an update to Windows that enforced signing requirements.

The trap hasn't been sprung yet, but those are the teeth, yes. Then say goodbye to Tor, E2E encrypted messengers, unapproved VPN apps, and bittorrent clients that don't check a Content ID database.

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2. mjg59+A5[view] [source] 2022-01-09 02:48:55
>>dane-p+F3
> The difference now is that Microsoft are saying they will only support machines which have these TPMs

That's a reason to worry about Windows 11 requiring a TPM, rather than a reason to worry about Pluton specifically. But even so, I don't think it's an especially realistic one - outside extremely constrained setups, it's very hard to make remote attestation work in a way that gives you any meaningful guarantees (eg, simply forward the challenge on to a machine that is running the "approved" OS).

> The trap hasn't been sprung yet, but those are the teeth, yes.

Again, something they could just do today while zero people have Pluton.

If Microsoft want to lock-down the entire x86 market, they can do that now. They don't need to wait years for everyone to shift to new hardware that has Pluton in it.

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3. dane-p+i8[view] [source] 2022-01-09 03:16:30
>>mjg59+A5
> it's very hard to make remote attestation work in a way that gives you any meaningful guarantees (eg, simply forward the challenge on to a machine that is running the "approved" OS).

I was imagining something like that would be possible (for people with enough tech knowledge), but it's good to have it confirmed, thank you. There would presumably be a cat-and-mouse game of the "approved" OS trying to detect if it was being co-opted into such a scheme.

> They don't need to wait years for everyone to shift to new hardware that has Pluton in it.

As you say, I'm more worried about Windows 11 than Pluton, but presumably the "importance" of Pluton is part of Microsoft's excuse for not supporting non-TPM hardware any more. Once Windows 10 is out of security support (for home users at least), it will be easier for Microsoft to claim that non-TPM Windows devices are de facto insecure.

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4. judge2+Fb[view] [source] 2022-01-09 03:47:34
>>dane-p+i8
> it will be easier for Microsoft to claim that non-TPM Windows devices are de facto insecure.

Which only means that programs can choose to not service devices without TPM - things like Netflix/Streaming Services and online competitive games, although it might take 10 years with the amount of people that will be unable to upgrade to 11 or upgrade their computer to one with a tpm at all. With computers become more and more about browsing the web, and especially with the chip shortage, people aren't upgrading their hardware as often.

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