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[return to "Amazon fires worker who led strike over virus"]
1. Boiled+x7[view] [source] 2020-03-31 16:15:25
>>blago+(OP)
Here is the key point Amazon claims he was exposed to the worker on March 11th. Over the weekened he said he is organizing a strike, so over the weekend they order him and only him into quarantine. A full 18 days after his 5 min exposure. From my reading of it, this almost certainly looks like retaliatory action due to the strike, and a company using the excuse of quarantine to cover it up.

Key excerpts from a much clearer article. And yet again, why you never 100% believe a company's PR response when they're trying to cover themselves. They tell just enough truth, but use it to intentionally mislead.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/mar/31/amazon-strik...

> According to the company’s previous statements, the infected co-worker in question last reported for work on 11 March. Had Smalls been exposed that day, a 14-day mandatory quarantine would have made him eligible to return as soon as 25 March.

> Smalls said Amazon did not send him home until 28 March, three weeks after the exposure.

> “No one else was put on quarantine,” he said, even as the infected person worked alongside “associates for 10-plus hours a week”.

> “You put me on quarantine for coming into contact with somebody, but I was around [that person] for less than five minutes,” he told Vice.

> According to Amazon, no one else was fired. Smalls said he was considering legal action, calling it “a no-brainer”.

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2. Reedx+Fb[view] [source] 2020-03-31 16:34:17
>>Boiled+x7
We should apply rigor to both sides. Each has incentive to cherry pick and mislead.

> key point Amazon claims he was exposed to the worker on March 11th

Did they claim that? I'm looking for a source on this. "According to the company’s previous statements, the infected co-worker in question last reported for work on 11 March", but when you look at their linked source[1] it says: "Amazon confirmed an associate, who reported for work on 11 March, has since been diagnosed with Covid-19".

> “No one else was put on quarantine,” he said

Is this confirmed? You can't just assume this to be true. Pretty damning if so, though.

> “You put me on quarantine for coming into contact with somebody, but I was around [that person] for less than five minutes,” he told Vice.

Viral transmission has no minimum timeline and often occurs at first point of contact (e.g., handshake) or cough/sneeze at any time. Kind of irresponsible to even print that quote without correcting the argument.

It may be that Amazon retaliated, but stuff like this doesn't prove it. We need the hard facts. At this point it's unclear and sounds fishy on both sides.

1. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2020/mar/30/amazon-wo...

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3. joshua+6E[view] [source] 2020-03-31 18:53:47
>>Reedx+Fb
I really hate it when people use he said/she said type arguments to pretend that they are being objective and 'rigorous'.

There is a reason that the courts have something called 'burden of proof'.

When an individual worker does something a large company doesn't like and they fire him, the burden of proof in my mind is on the company. Because HR has professionals and if they can't tell a better story than what we are seeing, then retaliation is the reason 90% of the time.

It isn't unclear. It is perfectly normal for companies to get rid of the whistle blowers. That's why there are (weakly enforced) laws against it.

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4. tidepo+OI[view] [source] 2020-03-31 19:20:09
>>joshua+6E
It's weird that you mention courts and then in the next sentence say this:

>the burden of proof in my mind is on the company

Because that is not how the courts operate. It is up to the person making the accusation (which in this case is the employee accusing Amazon of an unjust firing) to provide proof.

If you want to start dismissing all "he said/she said" arguments, then we might as well shut down this entire thread. We are never going to get any further than "he said/she said" unless someone in this thread has insider knowledge of this situation and is willing to break privacy agreements.

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5. fennec+c41[view] [source] 2020-03-31 21:17:41
>>tidepo+OI
> It is up to the person making the accusation (which in this case is the employee accusing Amazon of an unjust firing) to provide proof.

It's not necessarily either. It may very well simply be the preponderance of the evidence. Nevertheless, such a suit will be undertaken with the benefit of the discovery process.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discovery_%28law%29

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6. gitgud+W51[view] [source] 2020-03-31 21:27:06
>>fennec+c41
Preponderance of evidence is the bar that must be met. But the plaintiff must provide the evidence to the courts. The discovery process makes some of the defendant's records available to the plaintiff, in case there is relevant evidence.

But if the plaintiff produces no evidence, Amazon does not need to make a defense. Thus OP is correct.

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7. dragon+RB1[view] [source] 2020-04-01 01:39:54
>>gitgud+W51
> But the plaintiff must provide the evidence to the courts

Sure, but any evidence which makes an accusation more likely than in the absence of that evidence suffices to meet preponderance of the evidence in the absence of any contrary evidence. The fact of the labor organizing, the fact of the firing, and their temporal relationship are, together, evidence for retaliation.

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8. ncalla+xD1[view] [source] 2020-04-01 02:02:15
>>dragon+RB1
Yes, exactly. If the only evidence presented demonstrates that the plaintiff was organizing, that Amazon learned that he was organizing, and after that point Amazon fired the plaintiff they would very likely have met a preponderance of evidence burden. It sounds like none of those facts are even in dispute.

So, Amazon will very likely need to make the case (and Amazon will need to present the evidence to support it), that he was actually fired for violating the company mandated quarantine.

The actual evidentiary fight will probably be over whether that quarantine was a bona fide quarantine, or a pretextual one. But who has the burden to present that evidence will very much depend on who feels like they're losing the case. Probably both of them will need to present evidence to support their position.

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