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[return to "BlueCoat and other proxies hang up during TLS 1.3"]
1. JoshTr+w[view] [source] 2017-02-28 01:38:28
>>codero+(OP)
Note that this happens even when using a BlueCoat proxy in non-MITM mode. BlueCoat tries to "analyze" TLS connections, and rejects anything it doesn't understand. This exact issue occurred with TLS 1.2 back when BlueCoat only understood 1.1/1.0.

In this case, it doesn't sound like they're reverting it because of overall breakage, but rather because it breaks the tool that would otherwise be used to control TLS 1.3 trials and other configuration. Firefox had a similar issue, where they temporarily used more conservative settings for their updater than for the browser itself, to ensure that people could always obtain updates that might improve the situation.

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2. quotem+d1[view] [source] 2017-02-28 01:50:07
>>JoshTr+w
Ridiculously conservative middleboxes are why we can't have nice things and why we need to encrypt all new protocols, security properties aside.
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3. peterw+JN[view] [source] 2017-02-28 13:13:20
>>quotem+d1
Actually, no, that would just make everything more difficult. Browsers need to start coming to terms with the fact that they do not get do dictate how www networking operates for every organization around the world.

There are hundreds of thousands of organizations that need inspection and caching and proxying of internal www traffic. That all protocols should disallow or frustrate this disregards real needs of users and organizations.

Further still, if protocols can't be designed to be implemented easily or to allow for implementation bugs or lack of features, it's a crap protocol or application. Middleware will always be necessary, and encryption really shouldn't change the requirements of how middleware needs to work with a protocol.

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4. kibwen+f01[view] [source] 2017-02-28 15:09:57
>>peterw+JN
Then those organizations are free to not use encryption-friendly protocols for internal resources. Furthermore, those companies are free to fork Chromium or Firefox and distribute their own browser that renders these protocols toothless.

IOW, it's completely fair to argue that users might not have a universal right to encryption, but it's just as legitimate to argue that browser vendors have no obligation to enable the trivial circumvention of encryption. If the software doesn't work for your needs, then stop using the software.

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5. peterw+D21[view] [source] 2017-02-28 15:29:01
>>kibwen+f01
No they aren't, encryption is still required for internal transactions as well as working with external partners. And fork a browser? Are you nuts?

Nobody made that argument. But browser makers have an obligation to keep the world wide web usable. If it's not usable, say goodbye to dot com companies selling services to businesses, which aside from advertising revenue (and the hopes and dreams of venture capitalists) is the only way they survive.

The only reasonable alternative if you start locking out legitimate business use cases of traffic inspection is to abandon the web and start making proprietary native applications and protocols like back in the old days. This is bad for users and bad for business.

It's not like it's even hard to support these use cases while maintaining user security! Browsers just totally suck at interfacing with a dynamic user role. Better UX and a more flexible protocol would solve this, but nobody wants to make browsers easier to use (more the opposite)

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6. kibwen+9z1[view] [source] 2017-02-28 18:40:24
>>peterw+D21
> No they aren't, encryption is still required for internal transactions as well as working with external partners.

Then continue to use the encryption that exists today. After all, your concern is for future standards that make encryption stronger.

> And fork a browser? Are you nuts?

A lone user forking a browser would be nuts. A company that's already willing to pay through the nose for MITM proxies can afford to fund a minor browser fork. Indeed, if this use case is as important as you suspect, then you ought to start a company that sells customized browsers for exactly this purpose. Think about what site you're on; where's your entrepreneurial spirit? :)

> But browser makers have an obligation to keep the world wide web usable.

Usable for whom? Between users (who need strong encryption), websites (who need strong encryption), and corporate intranets (who need to snoop), whose needs ought to be prioritized?

> abandon the web and start making proprietary native applications

The web emerged from a world where all applications were native and proprietary, I don't think any browser vendor is losing sleep over this possibility.

> Browsers just totally suck at interfacing with a dynamic user role.

Again, sounds like there's demand for a new browser then. :)

> nobody wants to make browsers easier to use (more the opposite)

Why is that?

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7. peterw+BX1[view] [source] 2017-02-28 21:16:26
>>kibwen+9z1
There is no such thing as a minor browser fork. And my whole point was to not pick a side, it was to make the browser more flexible so it worked for more cases, not less.

Every non-Microsoft browser vendor used to cry themselves to sleep at night from days fighting against vendor lock-ins and corruption of standards. They certainly care if it all goes south.

I suppose people don't want easier browsers because they imagine they are easy enough and can't imagine something better. At least I hope that's the reason, and not that they fear change, or are indifferent to the needs of people other than themselves and prefer to design for that alone.

There's no way in hell I'm crazy enough to make a browser, though. I'd rather run for elected office, or eat an entire Volkswagen Golf.

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