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[return to "Why privacy is important, and having “nothing to hide” is irrelevant"]
1. miguel+2C[view] [source] 2016-01-06 12:53:40
>>syness+(OP)
Why don't privacy proponents don't go all in and just ask to get rid of the Internet? Surely, privacy is easier to maintain when communication is inefficient.

Perhaps that's because privacy is actually an archaic and backward idea that maintains all of our problems alive. I can't think of a less progressive (more conservative) idea than privacy.

The next most important revolution in human history will be our transition to a completely transparent society.

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2. m1sta_+5I[view] [source] 2016-01-06 14:19:37
>>miguel+2C
How do we get to a completely transparent society without massive collateral damage? I understand the rationale for the goal but the transition is so very difficult. I wish more thought was being put into it.
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3. miguel+lM[view] [source] 2016-01-06 15:08:25
>>m1sta_+5I
My only concern at the moment is to get people to realize that privacy is not good. Only when people understand that our goal is transparency can we come up with a strategy to make the switch.

Considering that we need to get to a transparent society, contributions to the privacy movement only ensures that the transition will be even more difficult and violent.

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4. maxeri+6O[view] [source] 2016-01-06 15:25:38
>>miguel+lM
Have you written anywhere about how you arrived at such a radical position?

(I mean radical in the traditional sense, not as a slur)

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5. miguel+hv1[view] [source] 2016-01-06 20:47:28
>>maxeri+6O
I don't see how it's radical. It's the only logical conclusion.

Many people have written about this. I haven't read a single convincing argument in favor of privacy as anything other than a defensive measure.

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6. maxeri+Jv1[view] [source] 2016-01-06 20:51:35
>>miguel+hv1
So no? I don't care about the labeling. I want to better understand the reasoning. Or at least, what pieces of information make it so obvious.
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7. m1sta_+Zz1[view] [source] 2016-01-06 21:29:07
>>maxeri+Jv1
I'm of a similar (although not identical) opinion to miguelrochefort. The short answer is... if you imagine a utopia, do you imagine lots of secrets or lots of openness and acceptance?

The reality is that I came to this conclusion through a long process but I'm pretty tired. The process definitely considered whether the 'private' version of the world was even possible. I don't think it is. Surveillance will happen. Better we accept it and keep an eye on how it's used than pretend like we can prevent it in the long term. Even if you were able to discourage the ubiquitous 'high tech hackers' and 'big data' forms of surveillance (which I don't think you'll be able to do), bribes and drones will continue to be used for the powerful to get what they want.

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8. maxeri+nC1[view] [source] 2016-01-06 21:47:49
>>m1sta_+Zz1
How do bathroom doors fit into this?

In your utopia, if you ask me a question, do I have to answer honestly? That people would always want to answer honestly is not a satisfying answer.

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9. m1sta_+8u2[view] [source] 2016-01-07 11:48:20
>>maxeri+nC1
Bathroom doors are great. Let's not confound surveillance of interactions and privacy in the extreme sense.

Bathroom doors allow you to interact with yourself with some level of privacy. People know you're in there. They know for how long. They know if there are extreme sounds or scents. If you misuse the plumbing or other bathroom features there is clear evidence of this. In rare circumstances, the bathroom door can be kicked down while someone is using the bathroom.

The most common result of such information is "are you ok darling?".

Bathroom behaviours are interesting because they provide a real case study on the impact of acceptance on privacy. On a first date, where you're not presenting the real version of yourself, you don't want the other party on the date to know anything about the events while you're in the bathroom. Over time, if the relationship progresses, the secrecy around these events changes. The reason for this secrecy changing, I believe, is trust/acceptance. Over time you know that if the other person learns more about the bathroom events, it will not change how they perceive you. If you're in such a relationship, it also doesn't mean you wont use a bathroom door, and it doesn't mean you don't want your partner to use one.

Hopefully that analogy makes sense. Most privacy advocates have a list of 'secrets' they fear will be used against them. I think we're more likely to see a world where this fear is addressed through improved respect of differences, compared to a world where suddenly surveillance is effectively impossible.

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10. jacque+Qv2[view] [source] 2016-01-07 12:18:33
>>m1sta_+8u2
Excellent comment, but I lost you at::

> Most privacy advocates have a list of 'secrets' they fear will be used against them.

What makes you say that?

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11. m1sta_+7x2[view] [source] 2016-01-07 12:44:28
>>jacque+Qv2
Why do I think privacy advocates have a list of 'secrets' they fear will be used against them? Because most of them are intelligent people who understand how society works. Society today is full of lies, secrets, and hypocrisy. If someone knows your secrets but you don't know theirs, you're probably vulnerable.

I don't think privacy advocates, and persons such as myself, differ in opinion on the problem today. The difference of opinion is on where we're trying to get to and how we get there.

Tbh, I don't know yet how to get to the end state I'd like to see.

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12. jacque+yx2[view] [source] 2016-01-07 12:50:50
>>m1sta_+7x2
Ok, so you are making an assumption there. I don't think your assumption holds, it is very well possible to be a privacy advocate and to at the same time not have any crucial secrets worth keeping.

Privacy is a good thing, whether you have secrets worth keeping or not is immaterial, privacy doesn't have anything to do with secrecy. The two are often mixed but if you look a bit longer you'll see that they are in fact orthogonal concepts only very loosely related.

Taking your bathroom example: there is obviously nothing secret about what is going on in that bathroom, you can infer most of it from your own experience. And yet, we do seem to feel the need for privacy.

Another example would be a diary. Diaries are intensely personal and our etiquette around them is that if you happen to come across someone's diary that you do not open it to read it. It is considered a private document, even if it will not contain any secrets it may contain thoughts that the writer does not want to divulge to the world at large.

So privacy does not require any secrets at all to be a very important thing to many people, including privacy advocates.

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13. m1sta_+x13[view] [source] 2016-01-07 17:52:41
>>jacque+yx2
We're into semantics here. Privacy provides a way to hide detail, to prevent confirmation, and to allow people to deny things. For simplicities sake I consider these, or more broadly, anything protected by privacy, to be 'secrets'.

I don't think the word 'crucial' that you added is useful here.

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14. jacque+Ud4[view] [source] 2016-01-08 10:57:40
>>m1sta_+x13
Such simplicity is lossy and in this case the loss is crucial, hence that word and that's why sometimes (not always, I'll give you that) semantics matter.

Especially when not seeing that distinction might cause one to state something that is either not true or that inadvertently allows re-framing the discussion in ways that hamper progress.

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